IR35 loses appeal case

[Cowboy Bob]

I notify my client when I am not going to be in work. I give them at least 2 weeks notice. What I don't do is ASK if I can take the time off. The time off is non-negotiable (well it is for a fee). My client is perfectly happy with this arrangement, and all my previous clients have been as well. And I'm one of the "old" timers who has had plenty if clients over the years. As long as you are professional about it, it's not a problem.

Then again, I'm choosy with which clients I choose to do business. I've turned down work simply because I'd have to wear a suit - ain't no-one telling me what I can and can't wear either.

[smalldog]

Cowboy, I envy your position being able to pick and chose, hasnt always been so easy for me or my colleagues. Particulary a few years back when the telecoms sector collapsed...It was take what you can or sit at home...Companies knew that too and quite a few wouldnt negotiate or refactor their contracts to avoid IR35, they had you by the short and curlies...

[blacjac]

I dont know anyone who works in the contract industry as a freelancer who gets paid fixed price, Im sure they are out there though but I see them well clear of IR35. And in the world of being a BTL landlord you are never not working, its 24/7 365...If a pipe bursts you cant say "sorry mate drown Im on holiday"

You do now.

I do fixed price work and T&M work for the same client at the same time.


And if, as a customer of your's my pipe's burst my landlord said "sorry mate drown Im on holiday", you are correct. I would be extreemly peed off.

But if they had sent me a letter 2 weeks previously that stated they would be on holiday from X date to Y date, in the event of an emergency please call Bill Smith on 0777777777777 instead, I wouldn't be even slightly miffed as long as Bill sorted my problem.


I currently do support work as well as project work and I am going on holiday for a week at the end of the month, at the end of April I sent an email to my contact at my current customer stating that "I will be unavailble between 27th June and 6th July. If this causes any issues I will arrange for a suitable replacement to be available".


They are no ways round it, if you have to ask your customers for permission to go on holiday, they are not customers, they are employers.

[BrilloPad]

then you wonder why I stopped arguing...

I know why - it was in the union rules!

[pisces]

IThe point is contractors don't have superiors, they have customers.

Same thing. Without a superior to set you tasks be it project managing or tape swapping you don't have a customer.

[malvolio]

Nope. The cliues were there, you just had to have the wit to see them. Even the earlier rant was written in cold blood...

My problem with you guys is you're trying to make a serious point in a very difficult position without knowing your enemy and without appreciating the forces ranged against you. Even your own supplier is not being forthcoming. Doesn't really bode well, does it?

[smalldog]

You do now.

I do fixed price work and T&M work for the same client at the same time.


And if, as a customer of your's my pipe's burst my landlord said "sorry mate drown Im on holiday", you are correct. I would be extreemly peed off.

But if they had sent me a letter 2 weeks previously that stated they would be on holiday from X date to Y date, in the event of an emergency please call Bill Smith on 0777777777777 instead, I wouldn't be even slightly miffed as long as Bill sorted my problem.


I currently do support work as well as project work and I am going on holiday for a week at the end of the month, at the end of April I sent an email to my contact at my current customer stating that "I will be unavailble between 27th June and 6th July. If this causes any issues I will arrange for a suitable replacement to be available".


They are no ways round it, if you have to ask your customers for permission to go on holiday, they are not customers, they are employers.

Blacjac, in that case good for you, in my experience you are a rare bread. It sounds like you are actually running a consultancy. If I had the luxury of employing Bill smith I would! I find it more practical not keep staff costs to a minimum and take my blackberry oops sorry techno, thats business sense...

I get the point you are making and if you are doing FP work and mixing it with T&M then you have IMHO passed the test with flying colours. But I think there is a majority who dont work in the way you do. They are still doing what they always did, still being told what to do, being paid by the day/hour, still requesting time off, still accountable to their customer/superior/slave driver (whatever you want to call them, they are all the same thing, they shout u jump) but on paper have all these cunning clauses to get out of IR35.

[NotAllThere]

... I own a property company...

BTL

Re: time off. I tell my clients when I'm not available. But I give them sufficient notice that it doesn't affect their plans. If their plans change, then I can be flexible. I don't ask their permission to be off. I never have.

I work in a country where there's no tax relief on dividend income. I can only extract cash through salary and expenses (allowed expenses are much more than in the UK). But my working practices and contract would still not be caught by IR35.

[blacjac]

They are still doing what they always did, still being told what to do, being paid by the day/hour, still requesting time off, still accountable to their customer/superior/slave driver (whatever you want to call them, they are all the same thing, they shout u jump) but on paper have all these cunning clauses to get out of IR35.

And therin lies the point, you can have all the clauses you want in the contract, if those clauses do not mirror actual working practices you may still be IR35 caught.

If you are being told what to do and when to do it, and you have to request time off, then you are a disguised employee and IR35 caught, regardless of what 'cunning clauses' you have in your contract. In an investigation you will loose.

[NotAllThere]

I agree - it really boils down to attitude.

I totally flummoxed one client when on the first day, there was nothing to do in the afternoon, so I went home. And only charged them for the 4 hours.

On the other hand, last Friday I'd planned on only working in the morning. At lunchtime, while enjoying my third beer, got a call begging me to help them with a critical problem. As I was in town anyway, I finished my beer, and went back to the office. Worked on the problem for an hour, and charged an additional half day - with their agreement. ( I didn't even solve the problem - but at least I could tell them with some authority that it had to be referred to the supplier. )

Clients like flexibility - but they sometimes have to be educated!