IR35 loses appeal case

[techno]

be interesting to see how this case is interpreted, and its reprocussions if any...I dont know any contractors (doesnt mean there arent any of course) that dont have to request holiday, or complete a set of tasks determined by their superiors...

I don't, I just tell them I am unavailable between dates x and y

Anybody who asks the client for a holiday does not have the mindset to run a limited compnay as a proper business rather than a tax advantage.

[smalldog]

lucky Im not an IR35 avoider then....

Good grief, I wouldnt have a consultant or consultancy company working for me who could just arbitrarily decide when they werent going to be around...

[Pondlife]

lucky Im not an IR35 avoider then....

Good grief, I wouldnt have a consultant or consultancy company working for me who could just arbitrarily decide when they werent going to be around...

As long as they delivered to the project timelines, what do you care?

[techno]

Hence proving my point as to why you are a dodgy scheme user rather than a clear minded businessman

[smalldog]

A managed service provider for instance can be a contracted consultancy as is the case in my organisation. They have project work which of course can be arranged around availability, but they also provide production support.

Its not possible to plan when things fall over and I couldnt have my managed service production staff swanning off when they wanted to. They would need to get agreement in advance from their client thats ok, in the same way a building company wouldnt expect its builders to just decide when they would take time off the project.

That isnt the real world....

[smalldog]

Hence proving my point as to why you are a dodgy scheme user rather than a clear minded businessman

No, just not read in dodgy IR35 avoidance tactics, thats got nothing to do with business acumen. Or are you implying that Mr Branson and Mr Sugar are fully read on the way in which contractors are caught for IR35, are you saying they arent clear minded businessmen? Get some perspective will you

Oh Pleaseeeeeee

[Dow Jones]

Guilty!

Just read this, very interesting case. AFAIK they didn't always ask the 'managers' to testify as in this case, I thought a written statement would suffice. How on earth could he have expected any 'favours' and more to the point is that evidence valid? Who says that the taxman didn't 'do a deal' with the company (absolve them from any responsibility/penalties) in return for their 'compliance'? Having said that, it was a difficult case to win under the circumstances (practices/long contract/etc).
In terms of practices, all very well saying that one can do this and that, but don't most contracts include the usual working hours and don't most here have to get consent for time-off/holidays? 'I won't be available for the next 2 weeks!' might result in the 'line manager' pointing to the exit, if in the middle of a busy time/prior to a deadline???

[techno]

A managed service provider for instance can be a contracted consultancy as is the case in my organisation. They have project work which of course can be arranged around availability, but they also provide production support.

Its not possible to plan when things fall over and I couldnt have my managed service production staff swanning off when they wanted to. They would need to get agreement in advance from their client thats ok, in the same way a building company wouldnt expect its builders to just decide when they would take time off the project.

That isnt the real world....

You see, you cannot think like a businessman. Who said people were swanning off? By setting out clear contractual working practices my clients are never agrieved when I give them the dates I am unavailable as I give them time to make sure things can be planned like any good businessman would do.

The work is what you want to make of it - and working practices for a client can certainly be negotiated to suit both parties. We all don't want to roll over and "do whatever they say"

[smalldog]

Just read this, very interesting case. AFAIK they didn't always ask the 'managers' to testify as in this case, I thought a written statement would suffice. How on earth could he have expected any 'favours' and more to the point is that evidence valid? Who says that the taxman didn't 'do a deal' with the company (absolve them from any responsibility/penalties) in return for their 'compliance'? Having said that, it was a difficult case to win under the circumstances (practices/long contract/etc).
In terms of practices, all very well saying that one can do this and that, but don't most contracts include the usual working hours and don't most here have to get consent for time-off/holidays? 'I won't be available for the next 2 weeks!' might result in the 'line manager' pointing to the exit, if in the middle of a busy time/prior to a deadline???

I totally agree, all this theory would be interesting to put to the test. Its just not real world....Ultimately company X isnt going to defend Mr Y and rock the boat with HMRC. They dont want to fall foul of HMRC and be in bad favour years to come for one lone beardy contractor....He expected them to defend him, how naive what have they got to gain by doing that? Just remember all your summising you dont apply here and there can quite easily be overuled by your so called "client" in a court. They have no loyalty remember, youre not an employee, you are just a supplier.....

[smalldog]

You see, you cannot think like a businessman. Who said people were swanning off? By setting out clear contractual working practices my clients are never agrieved when I give them the dates I am unavailable as I give them time to make sure things can be planned like any good businessman would do.

The work is what you want to make of it - and working practices for a client can certainly be negotiated to suit both parties. We all don't want to roll over and "do whatever they say"

You dont even know what business I am in so dont think thats a particularly relevant comment to which I wont bother defending....read my next post...

So they have no control over how much time you do or dont spend on the project?

In my experience (and I dont mean this to be eveyones) having been in this game since 1993 everyone is doing what they always did pre IR35, just hiding behind a bit of paper that attempts to mean they are now working differently....