Client gearing up to provide training to all staff

[d000hg]

My client wants to provide some agile training to all development staff, and some modern Java training to those working in project using it (which I do). I think the former would be someone running some sessions and the latter might be online courses from one of the large providers.

I can see it being useful/required to be up to speed on the specific implementation of agile my team uses because that's specific to the work I'm doing, but sitting through a day of "what is a sprint" seems like mandatory employee faff to me, in an Outside contract.
Equally I would normally do upskilling on Java in my own time, although if some code I'm working on uses a library I don't know of course part of the job is reading up on that. I think the client might just buy a corporate license to Pluralsight or something for self-study, which seems a bit more like having access to the client's technical library.

I did a little search here but only found a thread on much more specialist/product training. What do you lot do in this situation?

[northernladuk]

Tough one that. Depends on what their stance to you opting out of it. If it's mandatory for everyone then you don't have a decision but you've got an IR35 problem IMO. But then they do the SDS so it's their problem really.

For me if it's a couple of sessions on how the client wants to do it then that's fine. You are just aligning yourself to their process. If it's learning then that's a no for me.

So in your situation what is a sprint and how we are going to implement it then fine. It's just a process/procedure session. Using client resources to learn Java is pure training and shouldn't have contractors on it for IR35 reasons.

All that said if it's single sign on and you get access by default then who is to know. If you need to be given access then I'd say no as there is a record.

As you probably know I'm pretty anal about this stuff. I'm sure someone will come along and say it's the clients risk and who's to know so just get on with it. Not my cup of tea that but I can see why they would say it.

[ladymuck]

I personally would be very uncomfortable attending client training intended for its employees.

It's only come up once for me and the client were insistent that everyone on the project attended. Most of the contractors didn't care and saw it as getting paid to do nothing. I was possibly the only one who expressed an objection and ended up not charging for the two days the training took and had an email trail to that effect. It was the only way around it without walking.

[malvolio]

Just remember that is something is mandatory for all staff, permie or contract, then it can have no impact on IR35.

That aside, mandatory training for contractors implies a degree of D&C that is probably incompatible with an outside determination. After all, if you don't know this stuff, and it is not something brand new, then why don't you already know it since that is what you are being paid for...?

[WTFH]

If it was specific sessions relating to how the client runs/documents/reports a project, then I don't have an issue - that's not telling you how to do your job, but how they want the paperwork presented.
If it was generic training, I would question the value of it if it's something I already know, and would politely decline. The exception being mandatory requirements that apply to anyone who has access to their buildings/systems.

[d000hg]

Thanks all. I should add this is all motivated by the client actually being pretty good and wanting to let people do training, encouraging them, etc. Were I an employee I'd be really pleased I was offered time to do some training at work, just need to avoid being accidentally "employee-ised" through their good intentions I think.

[northernladuk]

Thanks all. I should add this is all motivated by the client actually being pretty good and wanting to let people do training, encouraging them, etc. Were I an employee I'd be really pleased I was offered time to do some training at work, just need to avoid being accidentally "employee-ised" through their good intentions I think.

To be pedantic a client willing to put your/their IR35 at risk and not understanding how to treat contractors isn't pretty good in my book. It's more of a problem that may or may not materialise in the long run. I get what you are saying but just making a rather pedantic point.

But you've flagged it and giving it consideration which is more than 90% of contractors will do. You've got the opportunity to look at the risk and make the right decision even if it means negotiating something with the client for a bit of evidence. Maybe a mail or letter explaining their intentions in a way that sidesteps the IR35 issue if you get me.

[jamesbrown]

It is a bit weird to attend training provided by the client unless it is unrelated to your skillset and something that anyone working on site must complete (e.g., for safety reasons or because the client has a system that you need to understand).

As a contractor, you're mostly assumed to be "trained" or, to put it differently, you're responsible for training yourself. Generally, you will be bringing skills that the client doesn't have.

Personally, I've never been offered any such skillset training, but I would not accept it if it were to be offered and I would find it very weird. As an aside, I also don't attend meetings unrelated to the project scope of work. That said, if your focus is IR35, then these are minor pointers only. Anyway, if you need training in Agile methodology, I would politely decline and acquire it separately - sounds like it would be something useful for your CV.

[d000hg]

To be pedantic a client willing to put your/their IR35 at risk and not understanding how to treat contractors isn't pretty good in my book. It's more of a problem that may or may not materialise in the long run. I get what you are saying but just making a rather pedantic point.

They haven't so far told me I have to do anything, but this is being arranged by technical people for their teams (not by HR) and they have no idea about legislation/IR35 and probably wouldn't want me to feel excluded.
If I was being pedantic, I'd say as a contractor it's my responsibility to avoid problems not theirs

[WTFH]

They haven't so far told me I have to do anything, but this is being arranged by technical people for their teams (not by HR) and they have no idea about legislation/IR35 and probably wouldn't want me to feel excluded.
If I was being pedantic, I'd say as a contractor it's my responsibility to avoid problems not theirs

How about this for an idea: Agree to do the course, but get them to invoice d000hg Ltd for it (or better yet if it is an external organisation doing the training, get the invoice direct from them) - that way it becomes something that d000hg Ltd has paid for, also don't charge for your time while attending the course. It's then a course done on your own time and paid for by your company.