Budget 2015: Chancellor announcement on Employment Intermediaries: Temporary workers

**SueEllen** · 23 March 2015, 19:07

Originally posted by MrWebDev View Post

Exactly! Sprint planning etc

This is where I think the permie/contract difference lays. For example I specialise in a certain field of web development, so I'm only given/agree to work on cards/tasks specific to that area (note SueEllen's earlier comment). The permies will pickup the cards in the backlog set by priority order, so I'm almost on a different stream of work if you like. As I am the only one in the 'team' that specialises in that particular type of work I believe that sets me aside. I believe where this may fall down is if I'm on a project with a permie that also happens to do the same type of work as myself, and I share my cards/tasks with he/she.

Nope it still wouldn't fall down then. You would agree amongst you what order things can actually be done in to achieve what the product manager wants done at the end of the sprint. This does however presume the tasks aren't all autonomous.

**MrWebDev** · 24 March 2015, 12:22

Originally posted by SueEllen View Post

Nope it still wouldn't fall down then. You would agree amongst you what order things can actually be done in to achieve what the product manager wants done at the end of the sprint. This does however presume the tasks aren't all autonomous.

I don't agree SE. The cards/tasks agreed in sprint planning will go into the prioritised pile. Unless you're the only one capable of doing certain cards/tasks, you'll be picking them up off the same pile just like the permies, whoever gets there first if you like. If that's the case, what then differentiates you from the permies??

**northernladuk** · 24 March 2015, 13:15

Originally posted by MrWebDev View Post

I don't agree SE. The cards/tasks agreed in sprint planning will go into the prioritised pile. Unless you're the only one capable of doing certain cards/tasks, you'll be picking them up off the same pile just like the permies, whoever gets there first if you like. If that's the case, what then differentiates you from the permies??

Do you get asked to do a piece of work across projects? One days piece of work is on Project X, the next on Project Y? In that case I'd say D&C can be demonstrated here and you are being treated as a disguised permie.

If your sprint tasks are all to the end goal of providing the service you were contracted for then you are ok.

It gets complicated if the schedule of work you have documented is very grey or makes you a general bod i.e. web developer. If you are a web developer for X project you should be ok.

**MrWebDev** · 24 March 2015, 14:25

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

Do you get asked to do a piece of work across projects? One days piece of work is on Project X, the next on Project Y? In that case I'd say D&C can be demonstrated here and you are being treated as a disguised permie.

If your sprint tasks are all to the end goal of providing the service you were contracted for then you are ok.

It gets complicated if the schedule of work you have documented is very grey or makes you a general bod i.e. web developer. If you are a web developer for X project you should be ok.

Now you put it like that, I would be inclined to agree. So it's when you start picking up tasks outside the scope of the project it becomes an IR35 issue. Apologies SE if that's what you were originally trying to say, I misunderstood.

That's cleared that one up then NLUK

We should probably get back to talking about the March Budget now

**SpontaneousOrder** · 24 March 2015, 14:44

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

Do you get asked to do a piece of work across projects? One days piece of work is on Project X, the next on Project Y? In that case I'd say D&C can be demonstrated here and you are being treated as a disguised permie.

If your sprint tasks are all to the end goal of providing the service you were contracted for then you are ok.

It gets complicated if the schedule of work you have documented is very grey or makes you a general bod i.e. web developer. If you are a web developer for X project you should be ok.

This. I'm (something like) "Java bod", and "this schedule is related to the 'XXX biscuit tasting project'".

The PO explains what feature he would like next, we negotiate a bit, and then I set off with the rest of the team to implement them for a couple of weeks.

A good quality product includes good quality code - just because it's hidden dosn't mean it's not part of the product the customer is paying for. So any general standards or conventions to be followed are not D&C anymore than implementing a required feature is.

The sprint is scoped to the project I'm contracted to work on, and i don't attend wider company meetings or 'standups'. I don't support the release of other project work. And when there's no work to do I either take a coupe of weeks off until there is, or I get a new schedule to go and work on something else.

In future if I can get something like 'agile consulting' into my mandate on the schedule, then it's effectively bringing in a consultant to offer on the job training to a less experienced team. If they're already sorted then obviously it'd be a bit fake.

**BlasterBates** · 24 March 2015, 16:33

The hard question you need to ask, is how are you different from a supply teacher or locum. A supply teacher is said to be inside IR35 because they are told what lessons to teach, they have to teach a certain syllabus, however no-one is sitting in their lessons telling them what to do, they just get on with it.

What is the dfference between being given a story to implement, under relatively strict coding guidelines and usually only when someone is usually checking your code in detail and probably telling you more or less how to implement it, because this is what I see in the way contractors are working in the projects I've been working on.

and lets face it can you really just send in a substitute simply informing them before you send them in.

There was a time in the dim and distant past where contractors often had a great deal of freedom in how they implemented something. One thing I have seen is a great deal more control being exerted, freedom seems to have eroded significantly over the past 10 years.

Still In spite of that, I think with the right contract, a bit of help from IR35 Insurance specialists and an under resourced HMRC you'll probably get away with it.

**SueEllen** · 24 March 2015, 17:41