No To Retro Tax - Ongoing battle against S58 FA2008

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Which refers to penalties not surcharges – there can be no surcharge applied on a non-existent debt should we finally win in court.

So surely a surcharge would be stood over whereas a penalty would technically become an enforceable debt?

But you are overlooking a crucial point.

Once an APN goes over the payment date, the APN itself becomes an enforceable debt, along with any penalties or surcharges.

Eg. they send you an APN for £50k. You tell them you ain't paying it. After 90 days...

[DonkeyRhubarb]

do we know how long they have to answer our letters re withdrawal ?

I don't think there's any time limit.

Once they do write back to you, assuming they reject your representations, you've got 30 days to pay up.

[weeboaby]

Pre-APN, but no actual APN yet

I got a couple of pre-APNs but have not yet got the actual APNs. I assume I just keep quiet and wait til they eventually turn up?

[elpinar]

But you are overlooking a crucial point.

Once an APN goes over the payment date, the APN itself becomes an enforceable debt, along with any penalties or surcharges.

Eg. they send you an APN for £50k. You tell them you ain't paying it. After 90 days...

with ones with surcharges what it says is - a surcharge of 5% is due if you dont pay within 28 days of the payment date ...... the penalty is by the payment date - so i assume that means on the surcharge ones the effective date is essentially 28 days after the date pubkished

[elpinar]

I don't think there's any time limit.

Once they do write back to you, assuming they reject your representations, you've got 30 days to pay up.

WHAT

so by sending the letter say 60 days before the due date - if they answered in 2 days ... you then have 30 to pay up - so you just effectively bought your due date forward?

[Fireship]

But you are overlooking a crucial point.

Once an APN goes over the payment date, the APN itself becomes an enforceable debt, along with any penalties or surcharges.

Eg. they send you an APN for £50k. You tell them you ain't paying it. After 90 days...

Really, I thought the position hadn’t been verified yet (sorry – I’ve been a bit tuned out in recent weeks due to other commitments)?? Are we certain it’s enforceable?? If that’s the case it’s a major problem!!!

Odd that HMRC would allow an enforceable debt to exist which they appear willing to do nothing about, i.e. allow penalties/surcharges to be applied over time rather than collect – puts a black mark against your credit score but that’s about it, in the short term at least…..

[DonkeyRhubarb]

WHAT

so by sending the letter say 60 days before the due date - if they answered in 2 days ... you then have 30 to pay up - so you just effectively bought your due date forward?

Sorry, I assumed people would have waited until near the end of the 90 days to make representations.

It's the later of the original due date or 30 days after they write back.

[Hmmmmm]

No panic

WHAT

so by sending the letter say 60 days before the due date - if they answered in 2 days ... you then have 30 to pay up - so you just effectively bought your due date forward?

Just read this and it made me a little worried. I have checked the APN letter and it states:

"If you make representations before the date the payment is due, and we do not withdraw the notice, payment will be due, on or before the later of:
- the original date the payment is due (shown above)
- 30 days after the date on which we notify you of our decision in respect of your representation"

So, sending a letter early won't shoot you in the foot and bring the date forward. If you want to buy some time, you could send the letter the week before the payment date and then you gain another 30 days plus however long they take to respond.

[elpinar]

Sorry, I assumed people would have waited until near the end of the 90 days to make representations.

It's the later of the original due date or 30 days after they write back.

no ive already written as i didnt realise there was any point in waiting - and my logic is

if you have a ctd ... so will use to not get penalities ... and it is not clear if you would get an original date ctd back on a withdrawn APN - so ... you need the reply in a timely manner (before the 90 days is up) ... as i presume making representation doesnt stop that old penalty shoot out on the due date

[deckster]

Really, I thought the position hadn’t been verified yet (sorry – I’ve been a bit tuned out in recent weeks due to other commitments)?? Are we certain it’s enforceable?? If that’s the case it’s a major problem!!!

The entire point of the APN legislation was to force payment of monies in dispute over to HMRC, and apply penalties in the case that payment wasn't made. Therefore, whilst it's true that the exact situation re: surcharge vs penalty and other details are as yet unclear, it's a reasonable assumption that HMRC will be taking the position that the money has to be paid over and that steps will be taken against those that don't. As DR has pointed out, the ultimate liability (post tribunals/appeals) is irrelevant here.

Whilst MP and others are making representations to defer and/or cancel APNs, it is far from certain that these will succeed and so, unpalatable as it may be, those currently holding an APN should be making the assumption that if they don't pay by the due date then the debt is enforceable and penalties *will* apply, regardless of the eventual outcome.