No To Retro Tax - Ongoing battle against S58 FA2008

[Morlock]

Given the indication that penalties will not be refunded, even if you win your case (i.e. the final liability is reduced to zero), then I cannot see how a penalty will be partially refunded if the final liability > 0 - you could be better off losing with a small liability than winning.

Of course, this assumes that penalties will not be refunded, which is only an indication at this stage.

Non-payment of a fine is usually a separate offence from the one which led to the fine being imposed in the first place. I think you would have to fight a separate battle to get any penalties refunded.

[Morlock]

Non-payment of a fine is usually a separate offence from the one which led to the fine being imposed in the first place. I think you would have to fight a separate battle to get any penalties refunded.

Actually, I have just re-read the HMRC doc on APNs, https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cc-fs24_1_.pdf.

There aren't any penalties for years prior to 2010/11 if there is a current appeal, instead there are surcharges.

The surcharge is 5% on the day the APN payment is due, and a further 5% six months later.

A surcharge is an amount which is added to your overall tax bill, so presumably it will accrue further interest in the usual way.

Interesting point here about appealing surcharges (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g.../section_2.htm):

"You have the right to ask the Appeal Commissioners to hear an appeal against
•any penalty determination, and
•any surcharge, on the grounds that you had a reasonable excuse for not paying the tax on time."

[webberg]

Actually, I have just re-read the HMRC doc on APNs, https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cc-fs24_1_.pdf.

There aren't any penalties for years prior to 2010/11 if there is a current appeal, instead there are surcharges.

The surcharge is 5% on the day the APN payment is due, and a further 5% six months later.

A surcharge is an amount which is added to your overall tax bill, so presumably it will accrue further interest in the usual way.

Interesting point here about appealing surcharges ([ARCHIVED CONTENT] HM Revenue & Customs: Compliance - Section 2 - Interest, Surcharges and Penalties):

"You have the right to ask the Appeal Commissioners to hear an appeal against
•any penalty determination, and
•any surcharge, on the grounds that you had a reasonable excuse for not paying the tax on time."

The notes do repay careful reading.

As a general principle it is not possible for a tax or a sum related to a tax (surcharge) to be levied without some form of appeal. This is because it is a basic right of a citizen to challenge why his assets are being seized by the state. Magna Carta etc.

A penalty is not strictly related to tax. It's a fine for anti social behaviour, in this case not paying a legal obligation. As such the right of appeal runs via a more general legal process outside tax law.

However some costs and penalties are not able to be appealed. These include certain standing charges.

From the confusion within HMRC it's not clear whether their advice is that an APN penalty should be able to be appealed or not. I'm attempting to find out.

[screwthis]

Today

is St. George's day

[DotasScandal]

is St. George's day

Time to slay that dragon!

[GripRacing]

Time to slay that dragon!

Exactly as shown in DR's graphic!

[mrkitchen]

The notes do repay careful reading.



As a general principle it is not possible for a tax or a sum related to a tax (surcharge) to be levied without some form of appeal. This is because it is a basic right of a citizen to challenge why his assets are being seized by the state. Magna Carta etc.

A penalty is not strictly related to tax. It's a fine for anti social behaviour, in this case not paying a legal obligation. As such the right of appeal runs via a more general legal process outside tax law.

However some costs and penalties are not able to be appealed. These include certain standing charges.

From the confusion within HMRC it's not clear whether their advice is that an APN penalty should be able to be appealed or not. I'm attempting to find out.

Just looking at my APN it mentions surcharges and not penalties, 5% if not paid in full within 28 days of the date, 5% on or before 6 months of the due date, where is the other 5%

[swede]

Praise to the Donkey.

Just wanted to say a big thanks to DR, Santa and anyone else who may have been involved with going and visiting HMRC on our behalf.

You guys rock.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

HMRC's objection to TAA

I reckon you've got a right to know.

The agency argument would not apply if we were deemed to have been genuinely self-employed (sole traders).

HMRC could try and prove that we did qualify as self-employed but that would fly in the face of everything they stand for.

Therefore TAA leaves them with a problem.

Their answer?

To allege that we fraudulently declared on our self-assessment that we were self-employed. Amongst other things, if proven, it would mean they could go back 20 years to assess PAYE instead of the normal 6 years.

Our barrister Anne Redston, who is also a Tribunal Judge, does not believe there is any basis for fraud. However, given the seriousness of this, we have instructed her to look at this more closely.

[lilikins1]

HMRC's objection to TAA

I reckon you've got a right to know.

The agency argument would not apply if we were deemed to have been genuinely self-employed (sole traders).

HMRC could try and prove that we did qualify as self-employed but that would fly in the face of everything they stand for.

Therefore TAA leaves them with a problem.


Their answer?

To allege that we fraudulently declared on our self-assessment that we were self-employed. Amongst other things, if proven, it would mean they could go back 20 years to assess PAYE instead of the normal 6 years.

Our barrister Anne Redston, who is also a Tribunal Judge, does not believe there is any basis for fraud. However, given the seriousness of this, we have instructed her to look at this more closely.

Do we know anything about the APN withdrawals? What s all that about?