No To Retro Tax - Ongoing battle against S58 FA2008

[DonkeyRhubarb]

On another note - I'm not sure why we're being so coy about naming the civil servants who are up to their necks in this fiasco. Let's get their names out there. They are categorically abusing their power and neglecting their duties.

Well, since you ask.

<Mod snip>

There are probably others in the shadows but these are the two we've been dealing with.

[webberg]

You are quite right in what you say. However that assumes Hector plays fair.

My biggest concern is that we may never get the money refunded despite winning at FTT. How long do you think these ****'s can spin out the appeals processes? it's been around 8 years already. another 10 years will probably see me in a wooden overcoat.

Assume you pay the APN and there is FTT hearing and decision in a year (which would be fast).

If that decision was in your favour, HMRC is obliged to return the tax you paid UNLESS they appeal (inevitable) AND they convince a judge that there is a risk that tax refunded may not be seen again if the decisions is reversed at a higher Court.

If a judge says - "nah, they're good for the money", you get the tax refunded.

However, best information at present is that if you were late with the APN and incurred a penalty, that may remain payable regardless of final position.

Makes you wonder if, in the situation above, you didn't pay the APN or the penalty and the case was decided in your favour before the baliffs arrived, would they be able to extract funds from you? I don't know the answer to that.

[Britspud]

Well, since you ask.

<Mod snip>

There are probably others in the shadows but these are the two we've been dealing with.

So DR...I presume you were at the meeting with HMRC when TAA was discussed. If so, what was the body language like of these two guys, and how has it been at previous meetings? Were they betraying irritation this time, where before it was smug indifference?

[Henrik]

So DR...I presume you were at the meeting with HMRC when TAA was discussed. If so, what was the body language like of these two guys, and how has it been at previous meetings? Were they betraying irritation this time, where before it was smug indifference?

Who do you think is the decision maker now? I assume <mod snip> can only make recommendations to drop their dead in the water case against us?

Does it then ultimately go to Lin Homer? I saw her giving a very poor performance against Margaret Hodge at one of the the Commons Select Committee meetings. Not convinced she'll be in that job much longer. Unfortunately she's under such pressure from the politicians I can't see her wanting to give this bad news to her bosses. Much easier to sweep it under the carpet and drag out through the FTT process - by which time they will all have new jobs or retired.

[Britspud]

Who do you think is the decision maker now? I assume <mod snip> can only make recommendations to drop their dead in the water case against us?

Does it then ultimately go to Lin Homer? I saw her giving a very poor performance against Margaret Hodge at one of the the Commons Select Committee meetings. Not convinced she'll be in that job much longer. Unfortunately she's under such pressure from the politicians I can't see her wanting to give this bad news to her bosses. Much easier to sweep it under the carpet and drag out through the FTT process - by which time they will all have new jobs or retired.

It's clear to me that the vital element that's still missing is the MTM JR against APNs. That at least may postpone the APNs and make the time taken to take TAA to FTT less of a problem. Is there any news on this?

[lucozade]

Given HMRC now know they have no case against us it is appalling that they do not immediately revoke any APNs which have been issued and close this down once and for all.

This should not need to be dragged through the courts - it is a further waste of time and money.

HMRC literature is dripping with comments about treating people fairly - well this is their chance to put that into action - drop this charade immediately and let people get on with their lives.

It is outrageous that people involved with this can still lose everything through bankruptcy despite the fact that senior staff in HMRC now know that there is no case to answer.

As for the ludicrous idea of pursuing us for fraud - more time and effort wasted - of both us and the taxpayer. A grand conspiracy of 3000 IT experts de-frauding HMRC - it's a joke surely.

Certain civil servants need to accept that they have lost and move on - we all know who they are - sitting on their hands for the next year while this drags through the FTT is a dreadful way to behave and ultimately I expect will open them up to official complaints of negligence and bloody-mindlessness towards us.

On another note - I'm not sure why we're being so coy about naming the civil servants who are up to their necks in this fiasco. Let's get their names out there. They are categorically abusing their power and neglecting their duties.

Perfectly sums up how I and I'm sure a great number of us feel.

I'm presuming the campaign have suggested that HMRC should now withdraw any APNs and shutdown our appeals.

Otherwise, we all have grounds to complain that we gave them this opportunity to save us all the hassle, heartache and waste of court time. Not to mention the tax payers money spent on chasing this lost cause.

When parliament returns I'll be writing to my local MP with this very complaint.

Bah Bah black sheep have you any wool...........

[Britspud]

I'm presuming the campaign have suggested that HMRC should now withdraw any APNs and shutdown our appeals.

Yeah, it was at the end of the Redstone letter which went to HMRC.

[bananarepublic]

Assume you pay the APN and there is FTT hearing and decision in a year (which would be fast).

If that decision was in your favour, HMRC is obliged to return the tax you paid UNLESS they appeal (inevitable) AND they convince a judge that there is a risk that tax refunded may not be seen again if the decisions is reversed at a higher Court.

If a judge says - "nah, they're good for the money", you get the tax refunded.

However, best information at present is that if you were late with the APN and incurred a penalty, that may remain payable regardless of final position.

Makes you wonder if, in the situation above, you didn't pay the APN or the penalty and the case was decided in your favour before the baliffs arrived, would they be able to extract funds from you? I don't know the answer to that.

Well unless HMRC come up with a better argument than fraud they would be bonkers taking this to an FTT. Because presumably they would need to argue S58 applied which would mean they would have to argue on the 'wrong' side (from their perspective) of the employment status argument.

If they win they create a precedent (strictly speaking it would have to go beyind FTTT to set a proper precedent, I believe) that anyone seeking to be declared self employed or outside IR35 could use. If they lose, well they just lose.

Presumably the revenue lost from a win would ultimately outweigh what they would lose if they lost.

[BarneyCool]

No one from HMRC will pull the plug.

Who do you think is the decision maker now? I assume David Lamb can only make recommendations to drop their dead in the water case against us?

Does it then ultimately go to Lin Homer? I saw her giving a very poor performance against Margaret Hodge at one of the the Commons Select Committee meetings. Not convinced she'll be in that job much longer. Unfortunately she's under such pressure from the politicians I can't see her wanting to give this bad news to her bosses. Much easier to sweep it under the carpet and drag out through the FTT process - by which time they will all have new jobs or retired.

None of them have the desire or the balls to stop the wheel turning on their watch. Which is another reason for us to the the fight to them.

[Resolute B]

Well, since you ask.

<Mod snip>

There are probably others in the shadows but these are the two we've been dealing with.

Sad as it may seem, I have just reread the threatening news letters that were sent to me by <mod snip>. Keeping them for future reference.