HMRC enquiries for EBT schemes through SANZAR

[z4thras]

Indeed. I couldn't say. But expert tax advice hopefully would. This might be via Cobham Murphy or other advisers. And probably big fees needing group funding. Then the group would get the guidance and would know whether to fold and settle with hmrc if the scheme was poor.... or if it has a good chance then persist with appeals and support the test case at tribunal etc...

I see Edge thread is far advanced on group forming, it there one being formed for Sanzar?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I see Edge thread is far advanced on group forming, it there one being formed for Sanzar?

There may be value/merit in seeing if it's possible to go with the same advisor as the Edge guys, assuming they get their act together.

[varunksingh]

There may be value/merit in seeing if it's possible to go with the same advisor as the Edge guys, assuming they get their act together.

Could'nt agree more

[Old Kent Road]

Group

I see Edge thread is far advanced on group forming, it there one being formed for Sanzar?

A lot of Sanzar users such as myself will have appealed via Cobham murphy who are specialist tax advisers. Other than that there is no group being talked about so far. Only issue with using CM is under the current setup, access to CM is controlled via Contractor Helpdesk and there is basic info only available. The last update was October. There is nothing forthcoming on what future outcomes might be, we are gleaning that more from the Edge thread.

Saleos comment was hmrc may be preparing letters for scheme users requesting loads of paperwork. I dont really want to be dealing with that. Much better if CM, or a group, can collect paperwork from some of their scheme users and use these as examples and deal direct with hmrc.

[z4thras]

A lot of Sanzar users such as myself will have appealed via Cobham murphy who are specialist tax advisers. Other than that there is no group being talked about so far. Only issue with using CM is under the current setup, access to CM is controlled via Contractor Helpdesk and there is basic info only available. The last update was October. There is nothing forthcoming on what future outcomes might be, we are gleaning that more from the Edge thread.

Saleos comment was hmrc may be preparing letters for scheme users requesting loads of paperwork. I dont really want to be dealing with that. Much better if CM, or a group, can collect paperwork from some of their scheme users and use these as examples and deal direct with hmrc.

I'm wondering how many of the schemes are operated an implemented the same and thus with new Finance Act 2014 inclusion of Follower Penalties: users of failed avoidance schemes
"This measure will introduce a new obligation for users of an avoidance scheme that HMRC have defeated in a tribunal or court hearing in another party’s litigation, to concede their position to reflect that decision. When there has been a relevant decision HMRC will issue a notice to all users of the scheme in question requiring them to amend their return or advise HMRC why they believe they should not. A tax-geared penalty would be charged if they failed to amend their return and it was subsequently found that the avoidance scheme they used failed on the same point of law. Taxpayers will be able to appeal against the penalty. "

and how many of the schemes are exactly the same in HMRC's eyes and thus a win for example with scheme provided by Company "A" they will try to use this for schemes provided by Companies B, C & D

[Old Kent Road]

Follower Penalties

I'm wondering how many of the schemes are operated an implemented the same and thus with new Finance Act 2014 inclusion of Follower Penalties: users of failed avoidance schemes
"This measure will introduce a new obligation for users of an avoidance scheme that HMRC have defeated in a tribunal or court hearing in another party’s litigation, to concede their position to reflect that decision. When there has been a relevant decision HMRC will issue a notice to all users of the scheme in question requiring them to amend their return or advise HMRC why they believe they should not. A tax-geared penalty would be charged if they failed to amend their return and it was subsequently found that the avoidance scheme they used failed on the same point of law. Taxpayers will be able to appeal against the penalty. "

and how many of the schemes are exactly the same in HMRC's eyes and thus a win for example with scheme provided by Company "A" they will try to use this for schemes provided by Companies B, C & D

Pretty sure the wording of this is all it's within the same scheme (e.g. same DOTAS number), it's not going to apply to users in other schemes. It's clearly a way to encourage scheme users to throw in the towel if the test case(s) for the scheme is defeated.

It does point to needing good advice, as we know already by now I hope. If any test case fails at tribunal due to poor defence (e.g. they were in a small group with limited funds or even on their own) then there would still be grounds for the other scheme users hopefully with a larger more well funded defence to argue the scheme is valid on different points of law.

[z4thras]

Pretty sure the wording of this is all it's within the same scheme (e.g. same DOTAS number), it's not going to apply to users in other schemes. It's clearly a way to encourage scheme users to throw in the towel if the test case(s) for the scheme is defeated.

It does point to needing good advice, as we know already by now I hope. If any test case fails at tribunal due to poor defense (e.g. they were in a small group with limited funds or even on their own) then there would still be grounds for the other scheme users hopefully with a larger more well funded defense to argue the scheme is valid on different points of law.

I have the feeling that our interpretation of " same Scheme " will be different to HMRC's interpretation, but that being said this new legislation should stiffen our resolve to group together as one loss is a loss for us all.

[Old Kent Road]

Shall we set up a Group?

I'm interested in setting up a private vetted forum for Sanzar scheme users, completely separate to CUK.

Initially the purpose of the forum would be to share views and information amongst the group without the possibility of HMRC snooping. We know that HMRC do read the CUK posts, and there is nothing to stop them registering and private messaging other users, for example, asking for copies of scheme sensitive documentation as they have "lost" their own etc. Therefore the vetting procedure will be robust. If required, the private group would also become the basis for group action and funding for professional advice.

Whilst Contractor Helpdesk and Cobham Murphy have helped some users so far, free of charge, we have no idea how long this will continue or whether we will be happy with the ongoing advice. The appeals lodged by scheme users over the course of this year have been relatively straight forward and generally accepted by HMRC, but it will only get more challenging from here on in. Therefore forming a group now and having a well prepared joint view, rather than being caught out and needing to react to a HMRC demand within 28 days is not a good position.

Any views?

If you would be interested in starting up the private group then PM me for details.

[cojak]

I'm interested in setting up a private vetted forum for Sanzar scheme users, completely separate to CUK.

Initially the purpose of the forum would be to share views and information amongst the group without the possibility of HMRC snooping. We know that HMRC do read the CUK posts, and there is nothing to stop them registering and private messaging other users, for example, asking for copies of scheme sensitive documentation as they have "lost" their own etc. Therefore the vetting procedure will be robust. If required, the private group would also become the basis for group action and funding for professional advice.

Whilst Contractor Helpdesk and Cobham Murphy have helped some users so far, free of charge, we have no idea how long this will continue or whether we will be happy with the ongoing advice. The appeals lodged by scheme users over the course of this year have been relatively straight forward and generally accepted by HMRC, but it will only get more challenging from here on in. Therefore forming a group now and having a well prepared joint view, rather than being caught out and needing to react to a HMRC demand within 28 days is not a good position.

Any views?

If you would be interested in starting up the private group then PM me for details.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...ml#post1859996

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I have the feeling that our interpretation of " same Scheme " will be different to HMRC's interpretation, but that being said this new legislation should stiffen our resolve to group together as one loss is a loss for us all.

BN66 may serve as an example. Several firms offered the scheme based on the Isle of Man Double Taxation Agreement (DTA), targeted by BN66, but HMRC has treated them all as one scheme, even though they weren't implemented in the same way and they had different DOTAS numbers. Although the scheme variants offered to contractors were fairly similar, the DTA schemes used by property developers were implemented differently. HMRC has treated them all as being the same scheme.

I suspect HMRC may similarly view all the contractor EBT/loan schemes (Edge, Sanzar etc.) as being fundamentally the same tax structure. They may even view some non-contractor EBT schemes as being part of the same overall scheme.

If they get a win against one scheme variant, they are almost certain to try and use this as leverage against other versions of the scheme.