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    #41
    I think after the first year, the private sector will eventually find a way when they realise they need flexible resource and everything will be back to normal

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      #42
      Originally posted by darkwingduck View Post
      I think after the first year, the private sector will eventually find a way when they realise they need flexible resource and everything will be back to normal
      Entropy is NOT what it used to be.
      Inertia, however........................

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        #43
        Originally posted by BR14 View Post
        +1

        HMRC learnt from Arctic. The Costelloe victory will help HMRC too.

        Contractors might stand a chance if they all work together....

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          #44
          Originally posted by BrilloPad View Post
          +1

          HMRC learnt from Arctic. The Costelloe victory will help HMRC too.

          Contractors might stand a chance if they all work together....
          But other recent cases have pushed it back the other way. If you deem a worker to be inside IR35, then there are serious costs associated with that decision that currently are borne by the worker that are going on your bottom line.

          There is a simple and effective solution, which is to engage contractors on proper B2B terms so IR35 is a distant memory. Rather than trying to persuade a deaf Chancellor that he's wrong, we should be educating the clients on how to use us properly - and, horror of horrors, we have to stop expecting to be paid nice and regularly like permies and take on a bit of the risk ourselves.

          As for work together - CBI, FSB, ICAEW, IPSE, IoD and various other minor groups are heavily on the case. However you will notice the agencies are focussing on teaching their clients how to minimise the costs of the change so their own income and lazy business model is unaffected. So don't expect a lot of help from REC and APSCo.
          Blog? What blog...?

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            #45
            Two reasons why contracting won't die.
            1. Plenty of contractors go through brollies.
            2. A minority of contractors/clients will establish direct B2B contracts.
            Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!

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              #46
              Originally posted by MarkT View Post
              So, that's that then I guess. No more contracting, unless we can fight it as a group and gain enough traction with Tory MPs to stop it by 2020. Not much chance of that, but you have to try.

              Won't somebody think of the accountants?
              "unless we can fight it as a group"

              so far although some groups exist, little has been achieved by them in the fight against IR35

              edit
              as I see it, IT contractors were originally the main target for IR35. However, the public sector roll out of the new rules has shown there is collateral damage in areas, e.g. the Health Service and the BBC, that HMG might not have foreseen. The PCG/IPSE was formed principally by IT contractors and as such, I guess HMG views this organisation as having self interest in opposing IR35.

              Until recent times and the roll out of the new rules, I would judge that other long standing organisations whose members might not have intentionally been the original target of IR35, but who are now being caught in the net, have remained indifferent to the issues.

              I really can't see IPSE being viewed with anything other than derision by HMG, and it might be better for them to work in the background with other organisations that HMG has more respect for and which existed prior to the advent of IR35 e.g. the organisation representing locum doctors.
              Last edited by JohntheBike; 16 May 2019, 07:56.

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                #47
                Originally posted by malvolio View Post
                But other recent cases have pushed it back the other way. If you deem a worker to be inside IR35, then there are serious costs associated with that decision that currently are borne by the worker that are going on your bottom line.

                There is a simple and effective solution, which is to engage contractors on proper B2B terms so IR35 is a distant memory. Rather than trying to persuade a deaf Chancellor that he's wrong, we should be educating the clients on how to use us properly - and, horror of horrors, we have to stop expecting to be paid nice and regularly like permies and take on a bit of the risk ourselves.

                As for work together - CBI, FSB, ICAEW, IPSE, IoD and various other minor groups are heavily on the case. However you will notice the agencies are focussing on teaching their clients how to minimise the costs of the change so their own income and lazy business model is unaffected. So don't expect a lot of help from REC and APSCo.
                Currently I am negotiating a direct contract with a big corporation. A project manager uses clueless HR that uses clueless Employee relations advisors. They could not change anything without that lawyers review while that lawyers even have no clue about SDC. They have a title "Employee relations advisor" and think if they repeatedly stating a duck is not a duck that is more than enough.

                I am trying to educate them with plain English and HMRC manuals, case law etc. But I think it will not work.
                They do not want to be educated. They are OK and they have no problem and they do not see any problems.
                That is the end.

                It seems for me no more grey colour and it goes to black and white. Either umbrella or business terms on your corporative web-site where you are no more Human and no more Resource.

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                  #48
                  End is nigh, just received this from a role I was going for

                  I am sorry but they said they no longer have any need for contractors, there’s been a change in their strategy when comes to contractors due to upcoming changes in IR35 legislation

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                    #49
                    Originally posted by KentDogWalker View Post
                    End is nigh, just received this from a role I was going for

                    I am sorry but they said no longer have any need for contractors, there’s been a change in their strategy when comes to contractors due to upcoming changes in IR35 legislation
                    Client: How can we avoid this IR35 thing? Get rid of the contractors! Who will do the work instead? Permies! Nope, no one wants to work for us for what we are willing to pay and we have such a poor recruitment process we put off more than we attract. Outsource!

                    Outsourcer: How can we provide the resource for our clients? Permies? Nope we don't want them on the books longer than the contracts. Contractors!

                    Contractor: I don't care who pays my rate, I'll just carry on and keep invoicing.

                    Moral of the story is that while there is a skills shortage there will be a need for easily accessible reasonably priced resource without the lead time of having to train up permies.
                    Maybe tomorrow, I'll want to settle down. Until tomorrow, I'll just keep moving on.

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Life after the end?

                      We have an acquaintance of the family with two years service in the public sector in an IT role who has just accepted a different job still in the public sector on a shade less than GBP 52,000 per annum. The person is 27. Good luck to them, there's life beyond IR35 it seems? (BTW - Not in London so no London style salary).
                      Public Service Posting by the BBC - Bloggs Bulls**t Corp.
                      Officially CUK certified - Thick as f**k.

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