Reply to: The end

[lecyclist]

Seems to me contractoruk isn't dead, more like on life support, with tubes sticking out of its arse.

FTFY

[_V_]

Seems to me contracting isn't dead, more like on life support, with tubes sticking out of its arse.

[founder]

I feel 60% better now thanks

[eek]

Applied for permie role at about 60% of what I'm earning last contract role

And? That's always been the case a £50k permanent job, would pay £50 an hour.

If anything, given how little wages have increased over the years 60% is a good deal

[founder]

Applied for permie role at about 60% of what I'm earning last contract role

[MojoDog]

So, that's that then I guess. No more contracting, unless we can fight it as a group and gain enough traction with Tory MPs to stop it by 2020. Not much chance of that, but you have to try.

Won't somebody think of the accountants?

Maybe, maybe not. There are still contract roles in the public sector that are designated as outside IR35 - at HMRC would you believe?

Not much point speculating, save your energy to deal with whatever happens, when it happens.

[Addanc]

So, that's that then I guess. No more contracting, unless we can fight it as a group and gain enough traction with Tory MPs ...

The only way you will gain traction with Tory MPs is by threatening to remove their snouts from the tax payers trough. Disappointed that IPSE didn't release the list of Tory consistencies most vulnerable to the contractor vote before the last election.

[rogerfederer]

You are absolutely correct and yes it's SoW with detailed deliverables as part of team delivering a whole product. The paperwork and prep for it was a right pain in the arse, as will reporting and milestone completion.

Still a lot of bum on seat contractors here though so will be interesting to see how they've managed it.

Why is anything changing after April for a public sector client? There is a few rules they have to come in to line with about issuing determinations I believe but the changes in April don't affect them. Its been in place for 2 years.

I was under the impression that the off-payroll rules, depending on what is actually added to (from feedback) and implemented, could potentially mean a contract cannot be outside IR35 unless it's paid in a certain manner.

I've got an infrequent work in the public sector that requires updating so I'll be aiming to be paid via milestones rather than time and materials, but when I've raised this with other contractors in a similar position their eyes glaze over and it's obvious they don't have a clue what's potentially changing.

It seems the private sector implementation will be far stricter, if T&M is disallowed (for obvious reasons), whereas it's still used in outside IR35 contracts in the public sector even after 2017.

[northernladuk]

NorthernLadetteUK:
Are you sure your contract is going to be ok?

My understanding is that there is a shift for private and public sector towards removal of T&M (Time and Materials) to SoW (Statement of Work). Crucially this means that the agency have to invoice for milestones completed, rather than per unit. The agencies I've spoken with who place only outside IR35 contract work fulfillment limited companies don't seem to have much of a clue about this when queried, which is worrying.

I'm currently having an issue with a public sector client who seem to think it's business as usual after April 6th but I strongly suspect that T&M will be considered Inside IR35 even if the public sector body considers the contract with SoW to be outside IR35. Think of it like a two tick system in order to attain outside IR35 status.

All will be revealed after the proposal that is currently out for feedback...

You are absolutely correct and yes it's SoW with detailed deliverables as part of team delivering a whole product. The paperwork and prep for it was a right pain in the arse, as will reporting and milestone completion.

Still a lot of bum on seat contractors here though so will be interesting to see how they've managed it.

Why is anything changing after April for a public sector client? There is a few rules they have to come in to line with about issuing determinations I believe but the changes in April don't affect them. Its been in place for 2 years.

[rogerfederer]

Interesting to read that, definitely given me food for thought. For quite some time, i've been quietly worrying but after hearing that I don't think I have to worry anymore. Your post have really calmed me down.

NorthernLadetteUK:
Are you sure your contract is going to be ok?

My understanding is that there is a shift for private and public sector towards removal of T&M (Time and Materials) to SoW (Statement of Work). Crucially this means that the agency have to invoice for milestones completed, rather than per unit. The agencies I've spoken with who place only outside IR35 contract work fulfillment limited companies don't seem to have much of a clue about this when queried, which is worrying.

I'm currently having an issue with a public sector client who seem to think it's business as usual after April 6th but I strongly suspect that T&M will be considered Inside IR35 even if the public sector body considers the contract with SoW to be outside IR35. Think of it like a two tick system in order to attain outside IR35 status.

All will be revealed after the proposal that is currently out for feedback...

[BritishLad88]

I had to leave my public sector client due to IR35 issues 2 years ago. I start back with them on Tuesday back outside. Taken a year or two for them to get their head around it and start offering outside gigs but they did.

Now how long that is going to be with the massive clients blanket banning PSC's I've no idea. I don't think it will be forever but it most certainly won't be what it was in the past (now).

Interesting to read that, definitely given me food for thought. For quite some time, i've been quietly worrying but after hearing that I don't think I have to worry anymore. Your post have really calmed me down.

[northernladuk]

Just noticed this post from just over a year ago. Famous last words, eh?

Nope. I expect it will be a mess for a period and start coming around. And as a perfect example. I had to leave my public sector client due to IR35 issues 2 years ago. I start back with them on Tuesday back outside. Taken a year or two for them to get their head around it and start offering outside gigs but they did.

Now how long that is going to be with the massive clients blanket banning PSC's I've no idea. I don't think it will be forever but it most certainly won't be what it was in the past (now).

Have to say though, I never envisaged it would be this bad to be honest. I was optimistic this time last year but most of that drained out of me since then.

[rogerfederer]

Exactly, the fundamentals rules of determination haven't changed at all, just shifted focus towards the Clients to make the decisions. Like you say, if they get it wrong then they would be liable hence many of them are taking a risk adverse approach (in particular the big enterprises etc...). I still feel though there would be a small minority of smallr-med size companies willing to take outside IR35 contractors on though. In particular those who require a flexible workforce. But opportunities like these i feel would be more & more less in future.

"More and more less?"

A moreless future for us all!

[BritishLad88]

I dunno, seem to have heard more about them deeming their own contractors outside IR35 than in.

All the hoo-ha about IR35 and the private sector overlooks that the fundamental rules on what makes a contractor inside or outside IR35 haven't changed. They've just changed tactics on who makes the determination, which appears to be causing somewhat of a horse stampede amongst the easily scared managers that default to a risk averse position due to not understanding the rules enough. HMRC will be congratulating themselves on that, as like you say they are concerned with tax income rather than worker rights.

Exactly, the fundamentals rules of determination haven't changed at all, just shifted focus towards the Clients to make the decisions. Like you say, if they get it wrong then they would be liable hence many of them are taking a risk adverse approach (in particular the big enterprises etc...). I still feel though there would be a small minority of smallr-med size companies willing to take outside IR35 contractors on though. In particular those who require a flexible workforce. But opportunities like these i feel would be more & more less in future.

[Hobosapien]

HMRC believe there are no genuine contractors.

I dunno, seem to have heard more about them deeming their own contractors outside IR35 than in.

All the hoo-ha about IR35 and the private sector overlooks that the fundamental rules on what makes a contractor inside or outside IR35 haven't changed. They've just changed tactics on who makes the determination, which appears to be causing somewhat of a horse stampede amongst the easily scared managers that default to a risk averse position due to not understanding the rules enough. HMRC will be congratulating themselves on that, as like you say they are concerned with tax income rather than worker rights.