Discussion document on IR35 published

[northernladuk]

I wouldnt say it was most, but it's a significant enough minority that it's not hard to spot. Makes you wonder if HMRC read these threads as some form of light relief since we already know they read some of the Retro Tax related stuff.

--> HMRC.

Hmm that would be an interesting statistic to investigate. In the big clients I've been at recently for every contractor that plays the game and knows what they are doing there will be 10s of others that don't know what IR35 is let alone the intricacies of it. Maybe my experience is different.

[eek]

Hmm that would be an interesting statistic to investigate. In the big clients I've been at recently for every contractor that plays the game and knows what they are doing there will be 10s of others that don't know what IR35 is let alone the intricacies of it. Maybe my experience is different.

I reckon your statistics are right and may even be on the low side. You then have those where the phrase "in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed...." definitely holds true. Which means that dodgy information starts to become fact (which is how dodgy schemes end up taking hold)...

[DaveB]

Hmm that would be an interesting statistic to investigate. In the big clients I've been at recently for every contractor that plays the game and knows what they are doing there will be 10s of others that don't know what IR35 is let alone the intricacies of it. Maybe my experience is different.

It's been the other way around for me.

In the contractor heavy gigs I've been on most have been clued up and doing it right, but there always seem to be a couple who either don't care or refuse to understand.

[northernladuk]

It's been the other way around for me.

In the contractor heavy gigs I've been on most have been clued up and doing it right, but there always seem to be a couple who either don't care or refuse to understand.

Hmm. Very interesting indeed....

[pr1]

+1. I have a simple viewpoint on this (which is crude but effective). Anyone who claims that VAT is an additional tax we pay rather than just an annoying task with paperwork attached that we have no choice but to do really has lost the argument before they begin...

An annoying task that allows us to keep an extra ~2.6% of turnover in our companies pocket, you mean?

I certainly wouldn't do it if it wasn't of benefit to me/myco

[ShandyDrinker]

Hmm that would be an interesting statistic to investigate. In the big clients I've been at recently for every contractor that plays the game and knows what they are doing there will be 10s of others that don't know what IR35 is let alone the intricacies of it. Maybe my experience is different.

I reckon your statistics are right and may even be on the low side. You then have those where the phrase "in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed...." definitely holds true. Which means that dodgy information starts to become fact (which is how dodgy schemes end up taking hold)...

I'm with NLUK and eek on this one. From working for clients in both retail and investment banking over the last 5+ years my experience has been mostly that contractors do not take an interest in IR35 at all.

It's been the other way around for me.

In the contractor heavy gigs I've been on most have been clued up and doing it right, but there always seem to be a couple who either don't care or refuse to understand.

I am surprised although I would imagine contractors in some sectors are more clued up than others.

Reading the IPSE benchmarking survey recently confirmed what I have observed in that only a third of contractors have their contracts reviewed for IR35.

From what I've seen, particularly over the last couple of years, is that if you make waves about whether a contract is IR35 friendly the stock answer is typically that "we've already got x number of contractors with the same contract" which makes you out to be a troublemaker if you ask for problem clauses to be changed.

[eek]

I'm with NLUK and eek on this one. From working for clients in both retail and investment banking over the last 5+ years my experience has been mostly that contractors do not take an interest in IR35 at all.



I am surprised although I would imagine contractors in some sectors are more clued up than others.

Reading the IPSE benchmarking survey recently confirmed what I have observed in that only a third of contractors have their contracts reviewed for IR35.

From what I've seen, particularly over the last couple of years, is that if you make waves about whether a contract is IR35 friendly the stock answer is typically that "we've already got x number of contractors with the same contract" which makes you out to be a troublemaker if you ask for problem clauses to be changed.

I think DaveB has been public sector for a while which probably explains their knowledge (with the rules the cabinet office tried to implement)..

As for your last point I wanted a recent contract changed because it had an utterly insane substitution clause (look we may not use it and you may not want us to but it should at least look like its usable)... As they wouldn't change it I went elsewhere....

[DaveB]

I think DaveB has been public sector for a while which probably explains their knowledge (with the rules the cabinet office tried to implement)..

As for your last point I wanted a recent contract changed because it had an utterly insane substitution clause (look we may not use it and you may not want us to but it should at least look like its usable)... As they wouldn't change it I went elsewhere....

It probably is sector specific, as you say I've been doing a lot of Public Sector work in the last few years. Certainly the CO and CLOne contract cockups highlighted things for a lot of contractors and made sure we knew exactly what was going on and raised objections when we needed to.

[ShandyDrinker]

As for your last point I wanted a recent contract changed because it had an utterly insane substitution clause (look we may not use it and you may not want us to but it should at least look like its usable)... As they wouldn't change it I went elsewhere....

I did get the agency to agree to some of the amendments advised by QDOS and ensured that I had confirmation from the client about working practices although the inflexibility was a factor in eventually leaving/not renewing.

In this respect I've found the small/mid sized agencies much better to deal with than the larger ones as they're much more open to amending the contract.

[eek]

An annoying task that allows us to keep an extra ~2.6% of turnover in our companies pocket, you mean?

I certainly wouldn't do it if it wasn't of benefit to me/myco

Try again... If we were excluded from the flat rate scheme how would you avoid doing it....

Yes we get a benefit from it (2.6%) but that isn't a selling point to HMRC that is another reason for not letting us get that benefit... Its not as if we need to accurately account for 150 cups of coffee a day with additional purchases that may or may not have vat included....