Reply to: IR35 Insurance/Reviews: QDOS v IPSE+ v IR35 Shield

[eek]

Kinda does really.

Especially when a role based determination has been made and that role is (in the client's eyes) inside IR35.

They have not used the word blanket but they have determined my role, 'Lead Consultant' is within IR35, h

[northernladuk]

Just because the end client will not accept risk and therefore forces you inside IR35 does not mean you ARE inside IR35[

Kinda does really.

[eek]

Firstly thank you for your response.

They have not said they are not using PSC's anymore, in fact they state you can get an independent review via Qdos and they will accept their determination. In practice this is not the case and it's a take it or leave it based on some very weak reasoning.

They have not used the word blanket but they have determined my role, 'Lead Consultant' is within IR35, however it is not specific to the services I provide and my working practices. There are other generic determinations across other roles such as project manager etc. This in my mind is the same as a blanket determination without using the actual term.

As for point 1, I agree the umbrella company will not give a toss but the client has the power to overturn this. They don't want to at this stage but that's not to say this will not change later in the year.

So it's a role based status determination - which is perfectly legal and above board. Heck it makes sense if you need a determination prior to the contract starting.

[GreboUK]

I will again ask these questions for it is very important

the end client has a blanket ban on the use of PSCs - perfectly legal (as note no mention of IR35)
the end client has made a blanket IR35 determination that everyone is inside - illegal

Firstly thank you for your response.

They have not said they are not using PSC's anymore, in fact they state you can get an independent review via Qdos and they will accept their determination. In practice this is not the case and it's a take it or leave it based on some very weak reasoning.

They have not used the word blanket but they have determined my role, 'Lead Consultant' is within IR35, however it is not specific to the services I provide and my working practices. There are other generic determinations across other roles such as project manager etc. This in my mind is the same as a blanket determination without using the actual term.

As for point 1, I agree the umbrella company will not give a toss but the client has the power to overturn this. They don't want to at this stage but that's not to say this will not change later in the year.

[eek]

I will again ask these questions for it is very important

1) why would an umbrella company care about your determination?
2) what have you actually been told - is it

the end client has a blanket ban on the use of PSCs - perfectly legal (as note no mention of IR35)
the end client has made a blanket IR35 determination that everyone is inside - illegal

as you aren't likely to get anywhere on the former case (and here a lack of a proper SDS determination is a good thing) and the latter is really only a problem if you have an actually SDS determination.

It's a shame SDS determinations don't have templates like the Key Information Documents agencies are supposed to provide.

[GreboUK]

Outside to inside with the same agency and client? I doubt any insurance will help you - as it will look like the client has thought you were inside all along.

The thing I would say here is like 'mwounder' I have had Qdos contract and working practices review which puts me outside IR35. I have also disputed the determination with the agent and end client but they are taking the "blanket approach" of all contractors inside IR35, take it or leave it. At the moment I need income so I'm taking it, but I have, and will not acknowledge I am inside IR35 especially as their assessment is generic and does not cover my working practices.

I will retain all correspondence between the agent/end client and myself and once my contract starts with the brolly on 6th April I will again dispute the determination. I will continue this process until I either find a new contract or they give in. In doing this I'm hoping it shows I believe I am outside IR35 and also stand a chance of them reversing the decision once the market relaxes slightly.

Just because the end client will not accept risk and therefore forces you inside IR35 does not mean you ARE inside IR35

[mwounder]

Yeah I'm in a similar situation by going via Brolly with same client for a month or two to wrap up my project. I had a QDOS assessment (working practices too) which showed I was outside so I'm not bothering with insurance. Pretty sure if they come knocking (who knows the likelihood) the back payment would be just for the start of the contract I believe...I started end of Jan so wouldn't be huge regardless. Interesting times..

[jamesbrown]

+1 Unlikely to be a "reasonable prospect of success".

[eek]

This is what I have been wondering. I have been forced inside IR35 and via a brolly (same end customer) but I want to keep my ltd company running in the event that magical moment occurs when outside IR35 contracts surface again. Keeping the business running with no income will require cutting back all non-essential expenditure and the Qdos insurance is a fair chunk each month.

Curious what others are panning on doing.

Outside to inside with the same agency and client? I doubt any insurance will help you - as it will look like the client has thought you were inside all along.

[GreboUK]

Is it still worth paying for insurance for the next 7 years (or whatever the length is that HMRC use) incase HMRC investigate contracts before April 2021?

This is what I have been wondering. I have been forced inside IR35 and via a brolly (same end customer) but I want to keep my ltd company running in the event that magical moment occurs when outside IR35 contracts surface again. Keeping the business running with no income will require cutting back all non-essential expenditure and the Qdos insurance is a fair chunk each month.

Curious what others are panning on doing.

[quackhandle]

You forgot the biggest upset in contracting since IR35 was invented?

I'd had a few sherberts.

qh

[eek]

Is it still worth paying for insurance for the next 7 years (or whatever the length is that HMRC use) incase HMRC investigate contracts before April 2021?

Up to you - move to a different contract and I suspect (99% certainty) that HMRC will have far more interesting issues to resolve.

[Fraidycat]

None because for future contracts it won't matter - the end client decides.

Is it still worth paying for insurance for the next 7 years (or whatever the length is that HMRC use) incase HMRC investigate contracts before April 2021?

[northernladuk]

Ha! You know what l completely forgot that. Ignore me I'll just carry on drinking.

qh

You forgot the biggest upset in contracting since IR35 was invented?

[jamesbrown]

Yeah, end client decides, else it's BAU (small clients or fully overseas supply chains) in which case you have the same points of comparison as now.