Anglo American - outside to inside

[Highland]

Issuing an SDS determination when the client is implementing a ban on PSCs would be just about the only thing that would have me serving immediate notice on the client.

If they are stupid enough to do things like that I would want to be as far away from them as possible - which I note from your leaving date seems to have been your approach as well.

Client had offered a PAYE FTC to end of 2021. I was on the cusp of signing but that went into the bin when the SDS appeared. Contract ends at the end of March so seeing it out as inside IR35 and then have another place to go to.

Net effect c. £20k extra tax paid versus original plan - although that doesn't take into account any future tax there would have been on dividends / other future profit extraction methods.

C'est la vie - the rate was good.

[Paralytic]

Thanks for your advice.
If i do stay on...
In the unlikely scenario i am required to pay back-dated tax for the Dec 2020-End of March 2021 "outside ltd" work, is there a fast to calculate how much funds i should put aside pls? Thanks

Just stick your details into one of the many Umbrella online pay illustrations, and they should tell you what tax & NI you would have paid had you been PAYE for those months.

HMRC have said they won't target people who go from outside to inside at the same client, but few believe them. I'd set some funds aside, and see it as a nest egg. After a few years, you may consider the risk has reduced enough that you can treat yourself.

[eek]

Similar happened to me, although not with AA and a bit longer - May 20 to Feb 21. Client issues SDS out of nowhere for the engagement without any prior consultation. Wouldn’t entertain anything supplied to support appeal. Post April client implementing a full ban on Ltd Cos so seemed like a waste of their time to me.

I decided to have my accountant revisit the revenue from the contract, treat it as caught and stumped up the extra tax. Minimal expenses and hadn’t taken much out of the business during the year up to that point so had plenty set aside. I had QDos review the contract prior to starting and working practices compliant (my biased interpretation) but if you know the client has the inside SDS in their pocket should HMRC ever ask them, I didn’t see much scope of successfully contesting an investigation - although unlikely.

I am a risk averse wimp who values the ability to sleep soundly though. I can always earn more money.

Issuing an SDS determination when the client is implementing a ban on PSCs would be just about the only thing that would have me serving immediate notice on the client.

If they are stupid enough to do things like that I would want to be as far away from them as possible - which I note from your leaving date seems to have been your approach as well.

[Highland]

Similar happened to me, although not with AA and a bit longer - May 20 to Feb 21. Client issues SDS out of nowhere for the engagement without any prior consultation. Wouldn’t entertain anything supplied to support appeal. Post April client implementing a full ban on Ltd Cos so seemed like a waste of their time to me.

I decided to have my accountant revisit the revenue from the contract, treat it as caught and stumped up the extra tax. Minimal expenses and hadn’t taken much out of the business during the year up to that point so had plenty set aside. I had QDos review the contract prior to starting and working practices compliant (my biased interpretation) but if you know the client has the inside SDS in their pocket should HMRC ever ask them, I didn’t see much scope of successfully contesting an investigation - although unlikely.

I am a risk averse wimp who values the ability to sleep soundly though. I can always earn more money.

[HelpNeeded101]

........

[Paralytic]

I hope you realise that if you stay past April 6 (presumable on an inside IR35 basis), you might as well (barring another contract that pays better/has better opportunities) stay for as long as the contract lasts.

The increased risk of requiring to pay back-dated tax for the Dec 2020-April 2021 work kicks in as soon as you stay even just 1 beyond April 6 and switch to an inside contract. Despite your appeal, you will be (in HMRCs eyes) effectively be accepting that you have always been a deemed employee and will have to have a strong defence to prove otherwise. I doubt you can do that given the information provided as part of the SDS/appeal.

Given the rather short period of time you were self-determining inside, unless you do have another gig to go to, i'd be setting aside some funds to pay for the tax that might be due one day, and carry on at the client, looking for other gigs in the meantime.

If you do decide to leave before April, and truly feel, and can show, the SDS is wrong (do you?) I'd be writing back to HR, challenging the 2 points, stating that your contract and working practices to date do not match what they have said, so you must therefore give notice of the business engagement.

[HelpNeeded101]

...

[eek]

Grinds my gears they ask the contractor to fill in the form. Complete waste of time as per the above. The contractor puts what they THINK is the situation but don't really know. They never have. So why are they asking the contractor? If they are using QDOS why hasn't QDOS pointed out the flaw in the plan? Or does their offering look meaty because of the extra steps and they can justify more money?

By getting the contractor to fill in a form - Agencies can pass the bill down to the contractor to pay rather than the end client / agency paying it.

Now there is a fundamental flaw in that approach (contractors won't be happy to pay for a survey that doesn't give them result they want) but QDOS haven't posted here since I pointed out that (very obvious) flaw in their plan.

[northernladuk]

Thanks very much northernladuk

Anglo American made us do a QDOS questionnaire and then they worked with QDOS themselves, this lead to a Status Determination Statement report.
So it is not a business wide blanket ban as some (10%) contractors have been found outside but 90% (like me and my co-workers) have been found inside

My skillset is PM / PMO / Change Mgmt

Please see below for an example of a the QDOS question and Anglo American's response:


QDOS question - Regardless of the written terms of your current/impending contract, if you were unable to provide the services, would the end client accept your business sending another person to undertake the services on your behalf, provided they were suitably skilled and qualified?

My answer - Yes I can send another person

IR35 Consultant feedback: Hiring manager has confirmed the contractor does not have the right to provide a substitute. This would indicate
that there is a personal service requirement and would contribute to inside determination made.

Grinds my gears they ask the contractor to fill in the form. Complete waste of time as per the above. The contractor puts what they THINK is the situation but don't really know. They never have. So why are they asking the contractor? If they are using QDOS why hasn't QDOS pointed out the flaw in the plan? Or does their offering look meaty because of the extra steps and they can justify more money?

[eek]

Thanks very much northernladuk

Anglo American made us do a QDOS questionnaire and then they worked with QDOS themselves, this lead to a Status Determination Statement report.
So it is not a business wide blanket ban as some (10%) contractors have been found outside but 90% (like me and my co-workers) have been found inside

My skillset is PM / PMO / Change Mgmt

Please see below for an example of a the QDOS question and Anglo American's response:


QDOS question - Regardless of the written terms of your current/impending contract, if you were unable to provide the services, would the end client accept your business sending another person to undertake the services on your behalf, provided they were suitably skilled and qualified?

My answer - Yes I can send another person

IR35 Consultant feedback: Hiring manager has confirmed the contractor does not have the right to provide a substitute. This would indicate
that there is a personal service requirement and would contribute to inside determination made.

So they've employed you to do a particular job and won't accept anyone else doing it. That to me says you have always been inside and any substitution clause was incorrect in the first place.

Now you still have MOO and control but it does seem the contract really is inside in the end clients viewpoint.

So you options are - stay or try to find another contract.

However as you've only been working there 3 months the tax hit is nothing like the same as if you had been there for years so personally I would be staying as I doubt you are going to find a replacement contract easily and the chances are that that contract will also be inside.

[HelpNeeded101]

....

[northernladuk]

Is it a blanket inside IR35 or have they assess each role and a few are still outside. What's your skillset? PM, Service, code? Just to get an idea what roles are being assessed inside in companies that are doing it properly.

[northernladuk]

I you look up the forum a few threads you will see a sticky titled 'Assessed as Inside from April or a Blanket Ban - it's time to leave' and a bit below another called 'IR35: Planning for April 2021 – should I stay or should I go?'

Probably doesn't cover such a short engagement but the theory is all there to help you decide.

We aren't in your shoes so can't answer. Leaving or staying needs to take in to account a host of other factors. For example. If you've a massive warchest behind you then you should leave. If you've no warchest it might be worth the risk for only a few months so stay. If your wife is an utter nightmare and pecks your head all the time then you should leave and get a staying away gig. If your wife is hot as hell you need to leave and make sweet love all day long. If you don't have a clue about this whole thing then you're just a permatractor that should be inside you need to stay. I'm sure there are a whole host of other sceanrios that relate to your shoes we don't know about as well so it's hard to say.

[HelpNeeded101]

...