Reply to: Lords damn IR35 changes

[elsergiovolador]

Since you pay yourself dividends to reduce your tax bill and not pay NI, don't expect anything back from the state.

This argument is so daft, not sure why you even bothered to type this. Dividend tax and NI land in the same bucket.

[AnthonyQuinn]

Can you point me in the direction of Covid-19 government assistance with regards to dividends? Must have missed that bit of their announcements...

Since you pay yourself dividends to reduce your tax bill and not pay NI, don't expect anything back from the state.

[d000hg]

Can you point me in the direction of Covid-19 government assistance with regards to dividends? Must have missed that bit of their announcements...

He did say lent. Maybe was talking about those lovely 0% loans

[simes]

Could be both...?

Might be worthy if someone ………..

Clearly not!

Consider me newly learned.

[jamesbrown]

Can you point me in the direction of Covid-19 government assistance with regards to dividends?

There isn't any. There won't be any.

[Bean]

Div tax will equal PAYE tax as its only fair we all pay back what has been lent. Making IR35 a future academic argument.

Can you point me in the direction of Covid-19 government assistance with regards to dividends? Must have missed that bit of their announcements...

[LondonManc]

I had a random thought - what if Rishi uses this as an opportunity for real change/reform to the tax system. It's all screwed anyway so maybe as good a time as any as we've seen a huge shift to home working, etc.

Probably a pipedream but just in case I'm writing it down

I've been saying this for a few years. The tax system has been layered on and layered on to adapt to change. We could probably do with a new set of tax rules to reflect modern society rather than a set with loads of loopholes that get created by trying to adapt an old system.

[elsergiovolador]

It's a pipe dream. Bear in mind who supported Conservative party and how independent contractors are serious competition to those companies.

Our community cannot come up with such money that could influence the party enough to change their stance.

[d000hg]

I had a random thought - what if Rishi uses this as an opportunity for real change/reform to the tax system. It's all screwed anyway so maybe as good a time as any as we've seen a huge shift to home working, etc.

Probably a pipedream but just in case I'm writing it down

[ShandyDrinker]

Financial privilege of the Commons? Nah, not a chance. Afterall, this is a comparatively tiny and uncontroversial measure when compared to the austerity bills, like the Welfare Reform Bill.

Sadly you're completely right.

Why is it not controversial? Because people who are affected are not used to protest? It's only going through because people didn't believe something so stupid would actually get implemented and they have you know businesses to run.

I think you are being far too generous. The majority of contractors I've encountered in the last 12+ years have no clue about IR35 and are happy to bury their heads in the sand - it's always an issue for others to address. Having been on both the protests outside Westminster, it was a downright disgrace that with so many contractors in the UK, on the first occasion there were less than 100 and on the second perhaps 600-700. Pathetic. It needs something on the scale of the poll tax riots to effect change.

Comparatively. It's controversial among a small community, a few tens to hundreds of thousands. Politics is about reality. The Welfare Reform Bill impacted millions. Longstanding conventions don't get overturned by minor injustices like IR35.

In addition to my previous comment about the poll tax, I cannot see any change will happen until your average office worker (or indeed any other worker) suddenly doesn't have a job, they have an off-payroll contract and have to fund their own holiday pay, sick pay and so on. It's only when a significant number of ordinary people are affected that they'll change direction.

[jamesbrown]

This is why it precisely should cause more outrage.

According to this article: How Entrepreneurship Might Be Genetic | Inc.com

37 to 48 percent of the tendency to be an entrepreneur is genetic.

Can you imagine a legislation negatively affecting people with different set of genetic make up?

At the same time look at the language that is being used to make larger population hate given group that is being persecuted:

Small businesses are tax dodgers, they don't pay their fair share and thanks to them public services are underfunded.

Average member of public can be easily turned against such group - so even if you do protest, that creates even more hatred.

This is dangerous and should not be taking place.

Politicians learned wrong lessons from what happened 75 or so years ago.

You're howling at the moon. I'm pointing out the situation as it is. Either way, it isn't "dangerous" or "racist"; get a grip.

Personally, I'd prefer something closer to what they do in Ireland, even if that means paying more tax (it does).

[elsergiovolador]

Comparatively. It's controversial among a small community, a few tens to hundreds of thousands. Politics is about reality. The Welfare Reform Bill impacted millions. Longstanding conventions don't get overturned by minor injustices like IR35.

This is why it precisely should cause more outrage.

According to this article: How Entrepreneurship Might Be Genetic | Inc.com

37 to 48 percent of the tendency to be an entrepreneur is genetic.

Can you imagine a legislation negatively affecting people with different set of genetic make up?

At the same time look at the language that is being used to make larger population hate given group that is being persecuted:

Small businesses are tax dodgers, they don't pay their fair share and thanks to them public services are underfunded.

Average member of public can be easily turned against such group - so even if you do protest, that creates even more hatred.

This is dangerous and should not be taking place.

Politicians learned wrong lessons from what happened 75 or so years ago.

[misiekm]

There is no problem when umbrella pays basic salary plus commission. Just make NI payable on dividends or treat them as any other income.

But that would be too simple? Imagine how many people at HMRC would suddenly find they have nothing to do.

Forcing self-employed person to take entire fee as a salary makes it impossible to conduct business. That will be the end of small entrepreneurship.

Source of the problem is elsewhere.
Lets have a look at one of affected industry only - IT , almost every company nowdays adopts 'Cloud' which is typically offered by US companies hardly paying any UK tax, comparing to 'traditional' service providers which are UK based. Such a migration trend creates massive gap in revenue for UK tresury.

How about taxing at source Amazon, Google, Facebook and Apple .This should generate more revenue than IR35 as a whole. (They can take the rest to Ireland and Luxemburg and onwards to US)

[jamesbrown]

Why is it not controversial? Because people who are affected are not used to protest? It's only going through because people didn't believe something so stupid would actually get implemented and they have you know businesses to run.

Comparatively. It's controversial among a small community, a few tens to hundreds of thousands. Politics is about reality. The Welfare Reform Bill impacted millions. Longstanding conventions don't get overturned by minor injustices like IR35.

[elsergiovolador]

Financial privilege of the Commons? Nah, not a chance. Afterall, this is a comparatively tiny and uncontroversial measure when compared to the austerity bills, like the Welfare Reform Bill.

Why is it not controversial? Because people who are affected are not used to protest? It's only going through because people didn't believe something so stupid would actually get implemented and they have you know businesses to run.