Lords damn IR35 changes

[elsergiovolador]

Could be both...?

Might be worthy if someone can show a precedent for a Lords' enquiry having lead to something being overturned.

A quick search brought this to the surface. Please let us all know if this constitutes as such.

Lords overturn MPs with vote for second Leveson inquiry | Media | The Guardian

Matt Hancock as a culture secretary has rejected the second inquiry, so the Lords were ignored. We are in safe hands

[ShandyDrinker]

Worthless in any formal sense because it's part of a Finance Bill, which is waved through the Lords by precedent, and the gov't has already recommitted to the changes. There's a slim chance they may rethink between now and next April, but I doubt it. Not worthless in an informal sense because it's pretty damning.

Given the amount of breaking precedents we've had over the last few years, I think to break this one would... set a new and worthwhile precedent. Not that it's going to happen mind you.

[jamesbrown]

Given the amount of breaking precedents we've had over the last few years, I think to break this one would... set a new and worthwhile precedent. Not that it's going to happen mind you.

Financial privilege of the Commons? Nah, not a chance. Afterall, this is a comparatively tiny and uncontroversial measure when compared to the austerity bills, like the Welfare Reform Bill.

[elsergiovolador]

Financial privilege of the Commons? Nah, not a chance. Afterall, this is a comparatively tiny and uncontroversial measure when compared to the austerity bills, like the Welfare Reform Bill.

Why is it not controversial? Because people who are affected are not used to protest? It's only going through because people didn't believe something so stupid would actually get implemented and they have you know businesses to run.

[jamesbrown]

Why is it not controversial? Because people who are affected are not used to protest? It's only going through because people didn't believe something so stupid would actually get implemented and they have you know businesses to run.

Comparatively. It's controversial among a small community, a few tens to hundreds of thousands. Politics is about reality. The Welfare Reform Bill impacted millions. Longstanding conventions don't get overturned by minor injustices like IR35.

[misiekm]

There is no problem when umbrella pays basic salary plus commission. Just make NI payable on dividends or treat them as any other income.

But that would be too simple? Imagine how many people at HMRC would suddenly find they have nothing to do.

Forcing self-employed person to take entire fee as a salary makes it impossible to conduct business. That will be the end of small entrepreneurship.

Source of the problem is elsewhere.
Lets have a look at one of affected industry only - IT , almost every company nowdays adopts 'Cloud' which is typically offered by US companies hardly paying any UK tax, comparing to 'traditional' service providers which are UK based. Such a migration trend creates massive gap in revenue for UK tresury.

How about taxing at source Amazon, Google, Facebook and Apple .This should generate more revenue than IR35 as a whole. (They can take the rest to Ireland and Luxemburg and onwards to US)

[elsergiovolador]

Comparatively. It's controversial among a small community, a few tens to hundreds of thousands. Politics is about reality. The Welfare Reform Bill impacted millions. Longstanding conventions don't get overturned by minor injustices like IR35.

This is why it precisely should cause more outrage.

According to this article: How Entrepreneurship Might Be Genetic | Inc.com

37 to 48 percent of the tendency to be an entrepreneur is genetic.

Can you imagine a legislation negatively affecting people with different set of genetic make up?

At the same time look at the language that is being used to make larger population hate given group that is being persecuted:

Small businesses are tax dodgers, they don't pay their fair share and thanks to them public services are underfunded.

Average member of public can be easily turned against such group - so even if you do protest, that creates even more hatred.

This is dangerous and should not be taking place.

Politicians learned wrong lessons from what happened 75 or so years ago.

[jamesbrown]

This is why it precisely should cause more outrage.

According to this article: How Entrepreneurship Might Be Genetic | Inc.com

37 to 48 percent of the tendency to be an entrepreneur is genetic.

Can you imagine a legislation negatively affecting people with different set of genetic make up?

At the same time look at the language that is being used to make larger population hate given group that is being persecuted:

Small businesses are tax dodgers, they don't pay their fair share and thanks to them public services are underfunded.

Average member of public can be easily turned against such group - so even if you do protest, that creates even more hatred.

This is dangerous and should not be taking place.

Politicians learned wrong lessons from what happened 75 or so years ago.

You're howling at the moon. I'm pointing out the situation as it is. Either way, it isn't "dangerous" or "racist"; get a grip.

Personally, I'd prefer something closer to what they do in Ireland, even if that means paying more tax (it does).

[ShandyDrinker]

Financial privilege of the Commons? Nah, not a chance. Afterall, this is a comparatively tiny and uncontroversial measure when compared to the austerity bills, like the Welfare Reform Bill.

Sadly you're completely right.

Why is it not controversial? Because people who are affected are not used to protest? It's only going through because people didn't believe something so stupid would actually get implemented and they have you know businesses to run.

I think you are being far too generous. The majority of contractors I've encountered in the last 12+ years have no clue about IR35 and are happy to bury their heads in the sand - it's always an issue for others to address. Having been on both the protests outside Westminster, it was a downright disgrace that with so many contractors in the UK, on the first occasion there were less than 100 and on the second perhaps 600-700. Pathetic. It needs something on the scale of the poll tax riots to effect change.

Comparatively. It's controversial among a small community, a few tens to hundreds of thousands. Politics is about reality. The Welfare Reform Bill impacted millions. Longstanding conventions don't get overturned by minor injustices like IR35.

In addition to my previous comment about the poll tax, I cannot see any change will happen until your average office worker (or indeed any other worker) suddenly doesn't have a job, they have an off-payroll contract and have to fund their own holiday pay, sick pay and so on. It's only when a significant number of ordinary people are affected that they'll change direction.

[d000hg]

I had a random thought - what if Rishi uses this as an opportunity for real change/reform to the tax system. It's all screwed anyway so maybe as good a time as any as we've seen a huge shift to home working, etc.

Probably a pipedream but just in case I'm writing it down