• Visitors can check out the Forum FAQ by clicking this link. You have to register before you can post: click the REGISTER link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. View our Forum Privacy Policy.
  • Want to receive the latest contracting news and advice straight to your inbox? Sign up to the ContractorUK newsletter here. Every sign up will also be entered into a draw to WIN £100 Amazon vouchers!
Collapse

You are not logged in or you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

  • You are not logged in. If you are already registered, fill in the form below to log in, or follow the "Sign Up" link to register a new account.
  • You may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
  • If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Previously on "Contract terminated, options?"

Collapse

  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by BolshieBastard View Post
    Yes, indeed it is tantamount to D&C. That's the reality for the majority of contractors.

    And yes, 'rules' should be viewed on in the loosest sense and I agree about 'professional courtesy'!
    Yup agreed.

    Leave a comment:


  • BolshieBastard
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    The rules as you've explained them there are tantamount to Direction and Control.

    I think you are talking about professional courtesy rather than rules and then what you said would still be correct but more IR35 friendly
    Yes, indeed it is tantamount to D&C. That's the reality for the majority of contractors.

    And yes, 'rules' should be viewed on in the loosest sense and I agree about 'professional courtesy'!

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Contra42 View Post
    I totally agree, that’s what being a professional entails. However for agreement to be achievable there has to be mutuality, if the client simply imposes working restrictions with the threat of termination for non-compliance then no amount of politeness is going to get you an agreement.
    It might, but as with everything in life, there are good clients and bad clients. We are suppliers so it's not a level playing field so we've got to be flexible and be able to play bad clients as well to earn our dollar. Doing what you want because it's right to the point of getting binned isn't good business.

    Leave a comment:


  • Contra42
    replied
    Originally posted by gables View Post
    Indeed, but not saying this of you, the above can all be done whilst being polite and courteous. The whole "I'm a contractor so will choose where and what hours\when I work", which you hear so often on this forum applies only in the selection of a contract. After that it's done in agreement (not by control by the client) with the client on how best to deliver your service.
    I totally agree, that’s what being a professional entails. However for agreement to be achievable there has to be mutuality, if the client simply imposes working restrictions with the threat of termination for non-compliance then no amount of politeness is going to get you an agreement.

    Leave a comment:


  • gables
    replied
    Originally posted by Contra42 View Post
    It always fascinates me how many different approaches people have to, well anything. Lots of interesting and fundamentally different viewpoints expressed here.

    I myself have always been more interested in the working practices aspect of contracting then any financial benefit. I’ve found that in my roles I am best able to serve my Clients by being seen to be somewhat independent, autonomous but also a team player when circumstances require it; I’m usually bought in to help organisations that are either going through some sort of transformation or are failing to deliver (often due to cultural issues). I’ve invariable found that one of the biggest obstacles to fixing the organisation is the number of people simply ‘working the system’, ‘playing the game’ or ‘following the rules’; the lack of dynamism that such behaviour engenders effectively kills an organisations ability to adapt within modern delivery timescales. I choose to lead by example and educate a client into better ways of working while respecting that others may disagree.

    I would say that I believe that contracting as a whole is diminished if people take the approach to not push back against clients who try to impose working practices that are contrary to the spirit of being outside IR35.
    Indeed, but not saying this of you, the above can all be done whilst being polite and courteous. The whole "I'm a contractor so will choose where and what hours\when I work", which you hear so often on this forum applies only in the selection of a contract. After that it's done in agreement (not by control by the client) with the client on how best to deliver your service.

    Leave a comment:


  • Contra42
    replied
    It always fascinates me how many different approaches people have to, well anything. Lots of interesting and fundamentally different viewpoints expressed here.

    I myself have always been more interested in the working practices aspect of contracting then any financial benefit. I’ve found that in my roles I am best able to serve my Clients by being seen to be somewhat independent, autonomous but also a team player when circumstances require it; I’m usually bought in to help organisations that are either going through some sort of transformation or are failing to deliver (often due to cultural issues). I’ve invariable found that one of the biggest obstacles to fixing the organisation is the number of people simply ‘working the system’, ‘playing the game’ or ‘following the rules’; the lack of dynamism that such behaviour engenders effectively kills an organisations ability to adapt within modern delivery timescales. I choose to lead by example and educate a client into better ways of working while respecting that others may disagree.

    I would say that I believe that contracting as a whole is diminished if people take the approach to not push back against clients who try to impose working practices that are contrary to the spirit of being outside IR35.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by BolshieBastard View Post
    LOL and rightly so. Didnt you think it would be in the least bit polite to say, "Sorry, Im really going to struggle to get some work done because Ive left my glasses at home which I need. Im \ you're ok with me nipping home, only take me 40 minutes to get them?"

    Yeah right, we're outside IR35 so we can come and go as we please, blah, blah, blah.

    It seems to me the OP who got canned didnt play by the client's WFH rules. Irrespective of whether you dont want to be disturbed, the client wants to know you're at hand. WTF should they have to phone you? You'd probably bellyache at that intrusion.

    I WFH for one client after a Sunday evening install didnt go to plan so did the work from home on the Monday. I was repeatedly being ping'd by 4 'managers' of the client asking if Id started, was there any problems, how was it going etc.

    I had to reply to them saying, Im not able to crack on because Ive 3 other 'manager's pinging me repeatedly asking the very same questions!

    At the same client, a good contractor who'd worked with them for numerous repeat engagements got walked off site for WFH without authorisation.

    It doesnt matter whether you're an inside or outside contractor, you have to play by the rules if you dont want the risk of being canned.
    The rules as you've explained them there are tantamount to Direction and Control.

    I think you are talking about professional courtesy rather than rules and then what you said would still be correct but more IR35 friendly

    Leave a comment:


  • BolshieBastard
    replied
    Originally posted by Wobblyheed View Post
    I was dumped by a government dept in Newcastle with no notice for nipping home (40 minute round trip) to get my glasses (which I had forgotten that morning). I should not have gone off site without permission apparently. Top and bottom of it - public sector (especially this govt dept) don't like contractors who used to be permies (albeit 30 years ago) coming back and flaunting their nice cars and contractor wealth Couple of months later all the other contractors were suddenly declared inside IR35 after 12 months of being outside. Pathetic...
    LOL and rightly so. Didnt you think it would be in the least bit polite to say, "Sorry, Im really going to struggle to get some work done because Ive left my glasses at home which I need. Im \ you're ok with me nipping home, only take me 40 minutes to get them?"

    Yeah right, we're outside IR35 so we can come and go as we please, blah, blah, blah.

    It seems to me the OP who got canned didnt play by the client's WFH rules. Irrespective of whether you dont want to be disturbed, the client wants to know you're at hand. WTF should they have to phone you? You'd probably bellyache at that intrusion.

    I WFH for one client after a Sunday evening install didnt go to plan so did the work from home on the Monday. I was repeatedly being ping'd by 4 'managers' of the client asking if Id started, was there any problems, how was it going etc.

    I had to reply to them saying, Im not able to crack on because Ive 3 other 'manager's pinging me repeatedly asking the very same questions!

    At the same client, a good contractor who'd worked with them for numerous repeat engagements got walked off site for WFH without authorisation.

    It doesnt matter whether you're an inside or outside contractor, you have to play by the rules if you dont want the risk of being canned.

    Leave a comment:


  • krytonsheep
    replied
    So that I could get some work done! That’s kinda the main reason for working out of office, you don’t get constantly pestered by those IMs, emails, people turning up at your desk etc. etc....
    I'm sure if you ran the public sector contract you had through Google Translate it will come out with a single line:

    "We pay you money, in exchange for you placing your rear exterior on one of our fine, health and safety approved office chairs."

    Leave a comment:


  • GhostofTarbera
    replied
    Originally posted by BrilloPad View Post
    You mean the one where they were not obliged to offer any work?
    That’s the one


    Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

    Leave a comment:


  • BrilloPad
    replied
    Originally posted by GhostofTarbera View Post
    Did they honour your notice period when terminated ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum
    You mean the one where they were not obliged to offer any work?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wobblyheed
    replied
    I was dumped by a government dept in Newcastle with no notice for nipping home (40 minute round trip) to get my glasses (which I had forgotten that morning). I should not have gone off site without permission apparently. Top and bottom of it - public sector (especially this govt dept) don't like contractors who used to be permies (albeit 30 years ago) coming back and flaunting their nice cars and contractor wealth Couple of months later all the other contractors were suddenly declared inside IR35 after 12 months of being outside. Pathetic...

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by NotAllThere View Post
    With my client, if the W meant "as in the office but at home", then that'd usually mean in the coffee area having discussions about various projects., and about 2 hours doing anything tangible.. I get much more done working from home. We're not all under direction and control like you.
    +1
    office = meetings
    home = actual doing what needs to be done

    the idea that anyone would willingly spend time in an office with multiple distractions is a complete No no to me nowadays.

    I would probably have teams open but there are days when that will be switched to busy - computer would skill be on with mouse thingy keeping everything alive.

    Leave a comment:


  • GhostofTarbera
    replied
    Originally posted by Contra42 View Post
    As a long term contractor, 30+ years, I recently suffered a weird contract termination by a public sector company in Scotland who had assessed the contract as Outside IR35. The reasons given for the termination was that on a day I was working out of office, with prior agreement of the Client, I was:
    ‘...not logged on and is therefore neither visible nor contactable.‘

    Note: my contract neither states required working times or duration, nor that I be logged on! The ‘visible’ part of the above statement is particularly worrying as it indicates a thought process that equates the lack of online activity with lack of work and the monitoring of such as acceptable.

    I’m wondering if such situations are becoming more common as I’ve never heard of one like it?
    And I’m obviously interested in any actions that could be take if such was to happen again!

    Thoughts anyone?
    Did they honour your notice period when terminated ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

    Leave a comment:


  • BrilloPad
    replied
    Originally posted by NotAllThere View Post
    With my client, if the W meant "as in the office but at home", then that'd usually mean in the coffee area having discussions about various projects., and about 2 hours doing anything tangible.. I get much more done working from home. We're not all under direction and control like you.
    See my response above. We all have to get on.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X