Could it be worth paying legal fees to challenge an inside determination?

[DeludedKitten]

Am expecting an inside determination (though have not actually been contacted by end client's HR dept who just ignore emails). Contract runs until end of November 2020. Other contractors in same role, same dept have received inside determinations & are suggesting we engage a lawyer to contest this. Anyone else considered this route? Any views on there being any chance we could win gratefully received. I reckon being inside will incur costs of around £10K for rest of contract, legal fees could be £2K to £3K each.

There will be few lawyers who understand the legislation, so finding someone competent to do this could be a challenge. At the moment, there is no legislation to be making any appeals about anyway, it's only draft until the Finance Act passes. At this stage the client does not have to make a determination and there is no right to appeal even if they do, because there is no law defining any of this.

Your best bet would be to prepare for an appeal - go through an assessment tool yourself, and explain why you have given the answers you have given. Highlight the contract clauses which indicate that the contract is not one of employment. Document your working practices to explain why you are not an employee or disguised employee. Get everyone to do this. If you can, get a permie from your project to work with you on the assessment so that they can back up your case.

Then put in the appeal. If the client is following the draft legislation then they need to give you a response and an explanation why the appeal is not upheld.

Then walk en masse when the appeal fails.

[simes]

1. Why do 3 - the initial decision has been made. You go with paperwork as to why you think you are outside and give the ultimatum - change the decision based on these facts that we think you've missed / got wrong or we walk..

2. But remember in the new world I think any client could (if they so desire) generate a statement that shows that they believe you are inside and expect you to be inside.

1. Fair enough point. But believing in the mantra, 'if you don't ask you don't get', similarly, 'if you don't educate they won't learn'.

If you offer information and evidence as to why you feel there is a different answer, it may still fall on deaf ears, to be sure. But the responsible thing in me says, 'hope for the best but plan for the worst'. In this case, hoping for the best would be that someone, somewhere and some time actually reads the response to consider an alternative view. When they are ready perhaps.

The worst being my point 4.

All this to say, if afforded the chance to speak to the client or forward information, I will take it. Sitting back and silent will ensure the clients will Never learn.

As to your point 2, completely agreed. I am just thinking 6-12 months down the line when there is less fearful knee jerk reacting.

Let's see...

[northernladuk]

Can I make that slightly clearer, if you don't mind..

No, it is not worth paying legal fees as there is nothing to legally fight...

But.. But.. But. We don't like it. It must be illegal

[eek]

In answer to OPs question.. No it is not.

Can I make that slightly clearer, if you don't mind..

No, it is not worth paying legal fees as there is nothing to legally fight...

[northernladuk]

In answer to OPs question.. No it is not.

[northernladuk]

Why do 3 - the initial decision has been made. You go with paperwork as to why you think you are outside and give the ultimatum - change the decision based on these facts that we think you've missed / got wrong or we walk..

But remember in the new world I think any client could (if they so desire) generate a statement that shows that they believe you are inside and expect you to be inside.

Just simes talking rubbish. No way would he do any of that.

Surprised no one has mentioned client binning everyone and starting again once it's got too far for them. I'd expect this would be around 2nd complaint around determination.

[eek]

I would plan for and execute option 3.

1. Get your SDS and CEST responses all lined up for the HR result.
2. If you know all the contractors where you are, get them to do the same.
3. Upon receipt of this decision, forward to the relevant person the above responses, so at least they have something to chew on.
4. And if the HR dept are not willing to listen or discuss, an en masse walk out.

The thing about a lawyer is that, it is only the contract you can discuss. How will the working practices marry up, which can only be reviewed in time? (Am only mentioning this last as this is how contractors were reviewed when investigated)

Why do 3 - the initial decision has been made. You go with paperwork as to why you think you are outside and give the ultimatum - change the decision based on these facts that we think you've missed / got wrong or we walk..

But remember in the new world I think any client could (if they so desire) generate a statement that shows that they believe you are inside and expect you to be inside.

[simes]

I would plan for and execute option 3.

1. Get your SDS and CEST responses all lined up for the HR result.
2. If you know all the contractors where you are, get them to do the same.
3. Upon receipt of this decision, forward to the relevant person the above responses, so at least they have something to chew on.
4. And if the HR dept are not willing to listen or discuss, an en masse walk out.

The thing about a lawyer is that, it is only the contract you can discuss. How will the working practices marry up, which can only be reviewed in time? (Am only mentioning this last as this is how contractors were reviewed when investigated)

[eek]

You have the right to appeal, I would try that first.

And that's about all you can do but it won't make any difference as I suspect there are answers that when combined mean any client company can force an inside verdict.

Being blunt your options are:

1) Accept it
2) Appeal (but expect to lose)
3) Resign on mass and see if that forces your client to reach a different verdict. However you do need enough people doing it that it forces the department to change it's mind and I suspect you don't have the numbers or the impact that will make the difference.

[cojak]

You have the right to appeal, I would try that first.

[VirginiaWoolf]

Am expecting an inside determination (though have not actually been contacted by end client's HR dept who just ignore emails). Contract runs until end of November 2020. Other contractors in same role, same dept have received inside determinations & are suggesting we engage a lawyer to contest this. Anyone else considered this route? Any views on there being any chance we could win gratefully received. I reckon being inside will incur costs of around £10K for rest of contract, legal fees could be £2K to £3K each.