Reply to: IR35 blanket bans - Ruth Cadbury MP in the House of Commons

[dsc]

I wanna add to my rant...

Why on earth does the CEST tool even *have* an 'inconclusive' outcome.

That's like putting someone on trial and having the jury deliberate and finally deliver a verdict of 'I don't know'.

If HMRC are gonna demand people go inside or outside then their stupid tool needs to pick a side.

Two reasons imho:

- so that HMRC can claim that you've put the data incorrectly and if you did it again correctly then you'd be inside

- to push clients into uncertainty and make them want to go ban-PCSs to reduce risk

IR35 was never black and white and what they're doing with their retarded CEST tool is trying to make a complex decision based on a bunch of simple questions. It's designed to fail.

[NotAllThere]

This is the deliberate obstinacy of Whitehall at play. This is not Tory policy. There was nothing in the manifesto. They are being weak, or dare not challenge the mandarins. I don't know why.

I do. Read Yes Minister. The ministers are house-trained. There used to be continuity between cabinets - a mix of new and old hands. The old hands had the measure of the civil service and could handle it to an extent. Blair came in with a bunch of newbies, who exclaimed how helpful the civil service are, not at all as they'd expected. At that point it was clear the Civil Service was on the ascendancy.

I just don’t understand how they can proceed when it’s unlawful and has such issues

Unlawful is one thing. Getting it to court so that a judge can rule on it is another. You can do what is (probably) unlawful up until a judge says "no". Unlawful is not the same as criminal.

[JohntheBike]

I wanna add to my rant...

Why on earth does the CEST tool even *have* an 'inconclusive' outcome.

That's like putting someone on trial and having the jury deliberate and finally deliver a verdict of 'I don't know'.

If HMRC are gonna demand people go inside or outside then their stupid tool needs to pick a side.

It's deliberate isn't it? They need to create as much uncertainty as they can so that they can spread further confusion.

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

I wanna add to my rant...

Why on earth does the CEST tool even *have* an 'inconclusive' outcome.

That's like putting someone on trial and having the jury deliberate and finally deliver a verdict of 'I don't know'.

If HMRC are gonna demand people go inside or outside then their stupid tool needs to pick a side.

[suityou01]

This will impact the economy and its all self inflicted. They will end up blaming brexit and this will be go under the radar. Work is being sent over to India and other parts of the world and I just can’t believe this is how blind the government are.

So many limited companies will close, tax will reduce, work will go outside of UK. I’ve put in 10 years to build my company and now the banks won’t even deal with it. And for no reason other than the thick people in government who just have their head up their jacksies .

FTFY

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[Rebel]

This will impact the economy and its all self inflicted. They will end up blaming brexit and this will be go under the radar. Work is being sent over to India and other parts of the world and I just can’t believe this is how blind the government are.

So many limited companies will close, tax will reduce, work will go outside of UK. I’ve put in 10 years to build my company and now the banks won’t even deal with it. And for no reason other than the thick people in government who just have their head in the sand.

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

If anyone is thinking damage to the public sector is over, I work for a huge international company that in turn works for the public sector. I'm working on a big public sector project.

All contractors here have been put through the IR35 determination process at the moment, and the CEST tool gave a result of 'inconclusive'. So there's a chance I'll be forced inside (I will leave or demand a huge raise).

No doubt I am not the only person in this position. It's like exodus mark 2 and it's gonna hit every company that provides services to the public sector that uses contractors.

[JohntheBike]

I wish more people had your gumption.

This legislation is really the emperors new clothes. I hope there will be more MP's like Ruth Cadbury in the future speaking out about the damage this has done to NHS projects already. This is probably the only potential miracle, maybe of not stopping the legislation, but coming up with some sane solution to allow the UK economy a lean, skilled, and adaptive flexible workforce.

as one poster has put it, HMRC's tactic is to tax first and deal with the fallout later. The tax law will never be reversed.

[wiffwaffwaa]

She put it in starker terms. She said it was unlawful. Also this is clearly affecting the NHS in a negative way. You couldn't have picked a better time to roll out the private sector reforms, just as the public sector reforms now have some data based on the laws of unintended consequences.

If the papers latch onto this in any big way this will reflect extremely badly on Mr Javid in particular who weaseled his way out of paying anything more than lip service to his cynical vote grabbing promise to review the planned off payroll rules.

This is the deliberate obstinacy of Whitehall at play. This is not Tory policy. There was nothing in the manifesto. They are being weak, or dare not challenge the mandarins. I don't know why.

Whitehall has absolutely no skin in this game. If the Tories fall, they will just press ahead with their ultra vires policies with a new government.

No, this has to play out. And play out it will. It has ramifications for everyone in the country, just no one realises it yet outside those immediately affected. But reality will bite, accelerated and amplified by the unprecedented turbulence of post Brexit fall out.

Obstinance and hubris always meets its nemesis. This time is no different.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Contractor UK Forum mobile app

I wish more people had your gumption.

This legislation is really the emperors new clothes. I hope there will be more MP's like Ruth Cadbury in the future speaking out about the damage this has done to NHS projects already. This is probably the only potential miracle, maybe of not stopping the legislation, but coming up with some sane solution to allow the UK economy a lean, skilled, and adaptive flexible workforce.

[suityou01]

I just don’t understand how they can proceed when it’s unlawful and has such issues. It’s as if no one is listening. I guess they either don’t understand the situation here and/or don’t care.

A bit of both I think. A 50% win rate is pathetic and wasteful. HMRC certainly don't care.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Contractor UK Forum mobile app

[Rebel]

I just don’t understand how they can proceed when it’s unlawful and has such issues. It’s as if no one is listening. I guess they either don’t understand the situation here and/or don’t care.

[suityou01]

She explains how it’s completely wrong when in NHS a temporary worker has no pay if the agency cancels and if they take a day off. So there is no security - yet these workers are taxed as employees. It’s completely wrong.

She put it in starker terms. She said it was unlawful. Also this is clearly affecting the NHS in a negative way. You couldn't have picked a better time to roll out the private sector reforms, just as the public sector reforms now have some data based on the laws of unintended consequences.

If the papers latch onto this in any big way this will reflect extremely badly on Mr Javid in particular who weaseled his way out of paying anything more than lip service to his cynical vote grabbing promise to review the planned off payroll rules.

This is the deliberate obstinacy of Whitehall at play. This is not Tory policy. There was nothing in the manifesto. They are being weak, or dare not challenge the mandarins. I don't know why.

Whitehall has absolutely no skin in this game. If the Tories fall, they will just press ahead with their ultra vires policies with a new government.

No, this has to play out. And play out it will. It has ramifications for everyone in the country, just no one realises it yet outside those immediately affected. But reality will bite, accelerated and amplified by the unprecedented turbulence of post Brexit fall out.

Obstinance and hubris always meets its nemesis. This time is no different.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Contractor UK Forum mobile app

[Rebel]

She explains how it’s completely wrong when in NHS a temporary worker has no pay if the agency cancels and if they take a day off. So there is no security - yet these workers are taxed as employees. It’s completely wrong.

[BrilloPad]

It has been well known for 12 years that HMRC might as well have no rule book. They do what they want, when they want.

If people only care when they are themselves affected, what do you expect?

[simes]

Many thanks.

I hadn't seen it until now. Very interesting.