Reply to: SThree have launched their IR35 product

[DaveB]

The client has little incentive to generate an outside result with the tool (except when they really cannot find a candidate in which case which decision is HMRC going to use).

S3 are instead guiding the client through the process (probably ensuring they fill in the form correctly in such a way that the answer reads outside). They are also checking that the working practices are outside (given that the contract will be standard - that's all that QDOS needs to do).

You then also have an agency that knows how things need to work to keep people outside so if things start looking wrong at the end client (scope creep, can just look at) you can be sure S3 will step in and advice the client that they can't do that...

Hence (and I'm trying hard not to make this a sales pitch for I'm not on commission) while any initial client may say you are outside there is a risk that the clients behaviour may eventually lead you into being inside. With S3 that's less likely to occur as the agency can advice the client that they can't do that....

Added to which the HMRC tool essentially ignores case law in a number of instances where as the QDOS review will properly reflect the legislation as it stands. Or at least, it should.

[Andy Hallett]

Seems like we did an ok job. Thank you for the support and feedback which did help shape our project.

https://www.sthreecareers.com/en/sth...for-excellence

[Andy Hallett]

Thanks for the positive feedback. It's important to point out we are not doing anything to sway determinations. There is strict anti-avoidance around this legislation and for the most part how a contractor contracts is neutral for us.

The "Fried Air" comment made me laugh, to be fair all we are doing is providing a bit of education, organised process and thought leadership.

[Andy Hallett]

Scheme isn't the best word to use surely?

Agree

product?

Better

[DaveB]

It hinges on S3 providing education to the client and the ability to everyone to push back when someone tries push things and that could be the client, it could equally be the contractor going native to remain in contract...

I suspect there will be contract clauses requiring notification to S3 of any changes in working practices with the penalty for failure being liability for tax and NI arising as a result.

[RonBW]

It hinges on S3 providing education to the client and the ability to everyone to push back when someone tries push things and that could be the client, it could equally be the contractor going native to remain in contract...

That's going to take a long time to achieve.

[eek]

I agree - it hinges on S3 being able to spot the problems in advance and manage that so that they don't get hit with the liability, and clients realising that you aren't just an arsey contractor saying "no" to their reasonable request.

Which is going to be a very long, drawn out process for S3 and the PSB to work through.

It hinges on S3 providing education to the client and the ability to everyone to push back when someone tries push things and that could be the client, it could equally be the contractor going native to remain in contract...

[RonBW]

That's going to have to be part of the client education process, and will also rely non the contractor pushing back and saying "No, I can't because it's not part of the scope of my contract. Please go and talk to the hiring manager who understands this."


Of course if they *are* the hiring manager then there is a problem, but reminding them of the arrangements and risks should do the job.

I agree - it hinges on S3 being able to spot the problems in advance and manage that so that they don't get hit with the liability, and clients realising that you aren't just an arsey contractor saying "no" to their reasonable request.

Which is going to be a very long, drawn out process for S3 and the PSB to work through.

[teapot418]

and revert with the updating....

updation

[DaveB]

So you get the clueful to do the needful?

and revert with the updating....

[LondonManc]

Believe me its a surprise. But its the same as with Contractor Umbrella I have the direct dial of senior people and I know they are clueful....

So you get the clueful to do the needful?

[DaveB]

I'd be interested to see how that can work in practice, unless S3 are going to have someone on the ground in every PS client that they work with who is monitoring the individuals (or certainly those in the project that will oversee the work). How can the agency prevent a project manager on a remote project from asking "can you just look at..."? I just don't see that being possible. I'm not convinced that a contractor can "be sure S3 will step in" at all.

S3 need to do a good sales job on all the end clients that they should either complete the ESS in a manner that S3 say they should, or that the end client should not use the ESS and should use their Qdos product instead - neither are likely to be an easy sell, but if anyone can sell it to the client it will be an agent.

That's going to have to be part of the client education process, and will also rely non the contractor pushing back and saying "No, I can't because it's not part of the scope of my contract. Please go and talk to the hiring manager who understands this."


Of course if they *are* the hiring manager then there is a problem, but reminding them of the arrangements and risks should do the job.

[RonBW]

You then also have an agency that knows how things need to work to keep people outside so if things start looking wrong at the end client (scope creep, can just look at) you can be sure S3 will step in and advice the client that they can't do that...

I'd be interested to see how that can work in practice, unless S3 are going to have someone on the ground in every PS client that they work with who is monitoring the individuals (or certainly those in the project that will oversee the work). How can the agency prevent a project manager on a remote project from asking "can you just look at..."? I just don't see that being possible. I'm not convinced that a contractor can "be sure S3 will step in" at all.

S3 need to do a good sales job on all the end clients that they should either complete the ESS in a manner that S3 say they should, or that the end client should not use the ESS and should use their Qdos product instead - neither are likely to be an easy sell, but if anyone can sell it to the client it will be an agent.

[northernladuk]

Believe me its a surprise. But its the same as with Contractor Umbrella I have the direct dial of senior people and I know they are clueful....

I'm sure a lot of senior people running agencies are. It's when you have to deal with the humdrum it starts getting messy.

[eek]

I never thought I'd see that phrase meant in earnest. How times change!

Believe me its a surprise. But its the same as with Contractor Umbrella I have the direct dial of senior people and I know they are clueful....