Reply to: HMRC Disguised renumeration - new approach by HMRC ("no requirement to operate PAYE")

[InNZ]

I have now received one of these - well 2 of them in the same envelope. I honestly thought this was all over and done with since I got a letter from HMRC back in 2020 saying that they will not contact about my disguised renumeration scheme. These new letters are refering to tax returns for 2005 and 2006 - I think they may be open years as I kind of remember receiving COP notices years ago but I honestly don't know for sure. It's years and years ago.

Did the OP ever get some professional help? If so are you happy to pass their details over to me, especially if you are / were happy with the advice?

Thanks

[VillageIdiotDan]

To the OP - you have redacted the address info at the top but you left in the QR code and info printed along the left margin - that means people on this forum don’t known who you are but HMRC (who read these forums) almost certainly do. So be careful discussing your strategy here now or saying anything that may self incriminate.

Cheers for the heads-up Andy, still haven't got my notifications set-up right lol so the cat is very much out of the bag but have updated hiding this also. Hopefully haven't said anything incriminating but I did rather carelessly omit to say how much I love and respect all taxpersons

[handyandy]

To the OP - you have redacted the address info at the top but you left in the QR code and info printed along the left margin - that means people on this forum don’t known who you are but HMRC (who read these forums) almost certainly do. So be careful discussing your strategy here now or saying anything that may self incriminate.

[Chevalier]

No - it makes sense - and presumably by declaring the years/schemes, they have the info they need for the 10/11 year.

Presumably no assessment yet for this year, but that’s the worry.

I remember the concern being raised by the Lords Committee over whether the offshore legislation eroded taxpayer certainty over investigation time limits and we could have the answer right here.

[VillageIdiotDan]

Sorry - a bit confused here…

The letter from HMRC mentions employment income from 2011, but you’ve just mentioned the loan charge?

Are these different schemes? Did you pay the loan charge (if it applies for this scheme/year)?

Sorry to confuse, it's my limited knowledge on the subject having buried my head deep in sand. I mention the loans in case something has changed but I understand there was a cut off of Nov 2010, all the loans were prior to that so I believe that loan charge does not apply.

[Chevalier]

Sorry - a bit confused here…

The letter from HMRC mentions employment income from 2011, but you’ve just mentioned the loan charge?

Are these different schemes? Did you pay the loan charge (if it applies for this scheme/year)?

[VillageIdiotDan]

Thanks all, apologies - didn't have my notifications settings right. I will go get advice as it sounds like I may be underestimating what my exposure is (OK ~£13k in tax & before loan charge cut off but what about levys, fees, fines, penalties they can throw at me) so the benefit of doing so may be that greater.

Yes, certainly lessons learnt here as I am concerned by the potential risk of loan reclaim in the future too....

[Fred Bloggs]

Unless HMRC have erred, I have to say it doesn't look good seeing as how you can't appeal against their decision. All you can do is make "representations" for what that's worth.

Exactly. OP is going to have pay the tax on the earnings and move on having learned a lesson about things that look too good to be true in life.

[DealorNoDeal]

In more simple terms:

• Since your employer, Momentum, was offshore they weren't required to operate PAYE.
• Normally, in this type of case, HMRC would try and collect the PAYE from one of the UK entities in the payment chain (eg. the end-client).
• However, instead they're using the discretion provided to them in law, to disregard this and come after YOU for the tax.

[GregRickshaw]

Man that's a confusing letter.

One paragraph exonerates you from blame almost (the comma is important). "It is not appropriate for the end users..." Then I realised they were addressing Momentum and not you in the same sentence....

Then the paragraph says we will be asking you for the perceived DR

I had to read that about six times before I got it.

[Chevalier]

Unless HMRC have erred, I have to say it doesn't look good seeing as how you can't appeal. All you can do is make "representations" for what that's worth.

The decision (that they say) that can’t be appealed is the disapplication of PAYE (Related to the Hoey case)

Presumably a discovery assessment is being warmed up as we speak, which should be subject to appeal

[DealorNoDeal]

Got to say I would seek advice and challenge based on the advice an expert gives you. There are probably a choice of attacks so you need advice as to what may work best

Unless HMRC have erred, I have to say it doesn't look good seeing as how you can't appeal against their decision. All you can do is make "representations" for what that's worth.

[eek]

Got to say I would seek advice and challenge based on the advice an expert gives you. There are probably a choice of attacks so you need advice as to what may work best

[Jumper]

Whilst there is no harm in trying to challenge HMRC that the year is not open, as per the powers HMRC now have for offshore income, they don’t necessarily need to have an open year and can go back 12 years for an assessment now. I would personally seek some professional advise however. I am assuming you were paid into a UK account? Did you submit SATR those years and didn’t declare the payments as income? If so, you may have a reasonable challenge to say this was presented to HMRC and it would not have been unreasonable for them to enquire about the tax and income at the time, therefore their limit is reduced to 6years for an assessment.

[DealorNoDeal]

You've got nothing to lose by challenging the decision on the basis that the years aren't open.