Reply to: Overdrawn Capital Account Scheme (Aston Mae / Glen Mae / Procorre)

[piebaps]

Remember this link https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...f-options.html

And in particular this advice;

If you are feeling desperate about the situation you are finding yourself in with regards to the HMRC please talk to someone about what is happening (talking on forum does not count). Please talk to a friend, a family member or someone from an organisation like Samaritans (ph. 116 123). Sharing what you are going through with someone can make a big difference to how you feel even if the circumstances don't change.

Talking about financial matters is not easy or normal for most people and there may be a feeling of shame about the situation holding you back from talking to someone. It might be helpful to frame the conversation like this

- You made a mistake and a lot of other people have made the same mistake
- This was openly and widely marketed and no action was taken by the HMRC to shut the schemes down when the action started
- The HMRC are now taking retrospective action but are only targeting the end users of the scheme not the schemes promoters or end clients who may have forced people into using the scheme

Please also remember that it is just money. Yes it is crappy to maybe maybe lose your home and go bankrupt and see your earnings from a lot of hard work disappear but you can survive and rebuild afterwards. I can't speak for everyones situation but please take time to consider what you do have and what the HMRC cannot take away from you.

[suckerpunch]

Have you still not started the process, now you're into the Christmas shutdown, HMRC shutdown... their interest and late penalties don't. Choose someone to do your bidding and get started, this is truly one of those moments in your life where time is absolutely of the essence.

I have started the process, yes, I have asked Gilbert Tax to represent me.

Now I wait to see what fresh hell next year will bring. A few weeks, maybe months, of stress and self-loathing. It's hit me bad. My wife and I have become strangers living in the same house and I can't look at the kids without feeling guilty. My son wants to go to college and then university, but that might not happen because of my poor choices.

I wake up early to exercise every day - it helps dissipate the anxiety, but not the shame.

I'll keep you all updated - writing about it helps.

[GregRickshaw]

Which firm did you engage?

Have you still not started the process, now you're into the Christmas shutdown, HMRC shutdown... their interest and late penalties don't. Choose someone to do your bidding and get started, this is truly one of those moments in your life where time is absolutely of the essence.

[mightyspur]

I truly appreciate your advice, thank you. I'm going to settle and take the pain. There is no easy way out.

I am also going through this, as you may have gathered from my posts. I pretty much agreed to settle from the outset, but I am still waiting for HMRC to give me a settlement figure. In the mean time, I have been paying as much as I can realistically afford each month, without making huge cut-backs. I figure it shows willing and may be viewed favourably by HMRC when they finally get around to giving me the final amount and I start to discuss the TTP arrangement.

It is HMRC though, so who knows.

[Snooky]

Which firm did you engage?

DTE Group, because my accountant recommended them. It looks like they're now part of DJH (Bury).

I'm sure there are plenty of other tax specialists out there, I only have experience of this company and they did a good job.

[suckerpunch]

I think this is wise. I have no real extra advice to add, just some personal experience.

Unless you've been antagonistic or fraudulent in your dealings with them, HMRC will normally be willing to enter into a Time To Pay (TTP) arrangement, where you supply your income and expenditure details and make an offer for how much you think you can reasonably repay monthly. In my case, because I chose to settle voluntarily, penalties were waived, although the total amount repayable still included interest from the notional date the tax became due to the point at which it was repaid (under a TTP that will be some time in the future). However, they don't compound the interest.

It was a tough bullet to bite but I just needed to close that issue down and not have it hanging over me any longer. That was a few years ago and I'm still paying it back, a few hundred £ a month.

The other benefit of coming to terms with them in a civilised way is that if your financial situation deteriorates you can go back and ask for the payment schedule to be amended. As long as they think they'll get the money back in due course and you're not taking the p***, they'll be happy. They don't want the expense and hassle of tribunals or bankruptcy proceedings.

I engaged a tax firm recommended by my accountant and they did all the talking to HMRC and negotiating the settlement. You don't have to do this of course, you can approach them directly.

Which firm did you engage?

[Snooky]

I truly appreciate your advice, thank you. I'm going to settle and take the pain. There is no easy way out.

I think this is wise. I have no real extra advice to add, just some personal experience.

Unless you've been antagonistic or fraudulent in your dealings with them, HMRC will normally be willing to enter into a Time To Pay (TTP) arrangement, where you supply your income and expenditure details and make an offer for how much you think you can reasonably repay monthly. In my case, because I chose to settle voluntarily, penalties were waived, although the total amount repayable still included interest from the notional date the tax became due to the point at which it was repaid (under a TTP that will be some time in the future). However, they don't compound the interest.

It was a tough bullet to bite but I just needed to close that issue down and not have it hanging over me any longer. That was a few years ago and I'm still paying it back, a few hundred £ a month.

The other benefit of coming to terms with them in a civilised way is that if your financial situation deteriorates you can go back and ask for the payment schedule to be amended. As long as they think they'll get the money back in due course and you're not taking the p***, they'll be happy. They don't want the expense and hassle of tribunals or bankruptcy proceedings.

I engaged a tax firm recommended by my accountant and they did all the talking to HMRC and negotiating the settlement. You don't have to do this of course, you can approach them directly.

[GregRickshaw]

I truly appreciate your advice, thank you. I'm going to settle and take the pain. There is no easy way out.

Good to hear

[suckerpunch]

I’m sorry but we have given you all of the advice that we can. Other than using a respected tax advisor who will negotiate the best deal with HMRC there is nothing more that we can say.

WTT were on here at one point and you can find the threads in this forum. There have been no victory threads and I don’t believe that there will be in the future.

I would advise that you lose the ‘fight them on the beaches’ attitude with HMRC, just work with them, sort out your finances and then get on with your life. Otherwise you’ll be posting here in 10 years time.

I truly appreciate your advice, thank you. I'm going to settle and take the pain. There is no easy way out.

[cojak]

I'm still here, but my situation remains desperate.

I have two options:

1) Seek a settlement with HMRC now

2) Pay WTT Group over £5000 (+VAT) to join their litigation against HMRC (this could take around 18 months). I could save a great deal IF they win, otherwise waste £5000+ and be forced to pay HMRC anyway.
WTT will argue that the liability should be on HMRC, not the contractors.

I cannot decide - I have made bad decisions in the past so I have confidence in my judgement now.

Option 2 seems like wishful thinking - the same kind that led to this situation. Option 1 feels like in capitulating and giving up any hope of fighting this.

Are any other contractors here going with WTT Group?

I’m sorry but we have given you all of the advice that we can. Other than using a respected tax advisor who will negotiate the best deal with HMRC there is nothing more that we can say.

WTT were on here at one point and you can find the threads in this forum. There have been no victory threads and I don’t believe that there will be in the future.

I would advise that you lose the ‘fight them on the beaches’ attitude with HMRC, just work with them, sort out your finances and then get on with your life. Otherwise you’ll be posting here in 10 years time.

[suckerpunch]

I'm still here, but my situation remains desperate.

I have two options:

1) Seek a settlement with HMRC now

2) Pay WTT Group over £5000 (+VAT) to join their litigation against HMRC (this could take around 18 months). I could save a great deal IF they win, otherwise waste £5000+ and be forced to pay HMRC anyway.
WTT will argue that the liability should be on HMRC, not the contractors.

I cannot decide - I have made bad decisions in the past so I have confidence in my judgement now.

Option 2 seems like wishful thinking - the same kind that led to this situation. Option 1 feels like in capitulating and giving up any hope of fighting this.

Are any other contractors here going with WTT Group?

[GregRickshaw]

It seems the legal advisor will be taking this to tribunal but with a different firm. I am torn between going straight to Gilbert Tax now or waiting the outcome of the tribunal.

I've read in several places that there has never been a successful challenge against HMRC. Where can I confirm that?

I don't want to be presumptuous here but I can only go on your seemingly fragile state of mind indicated in your previous post, so with that caveat I'm going to say get to Gilbert Tax and get them working on a settlement today! You will be truly amazed at the feeling when things start to get moving. A clear defined plan of action has got to be better than horrible uncertainty.

There are many cases which have 'lost' Sanzar, Garraway, Montpellier, Rangers... I quoted 'lost' because Rangers I believe are still fighting but let's not get any hope going here at all, there is none HMRC win always in the these Loan/EBT cases.

Speak to your spouse you chose your spouse for a reason, my spouse is female and I can tell you females have a remarkably stoic attitude when it comes to these things.

Good luck and keep posting here so we know you're okay

G

[suckerpunch]

It seems the legal advisor will be taking this to tribunal but with a different firm. I am torn between going straight to Gilbert Tax now or waiting the outcome of the tribunal.

I've read in several places that there has never been a successful challenge against HMRC. Where can I confirm that?

[GregRickshaw]

Yes I have received this letter. I am worried. If McCarthy Denning are not successful, I will be on the hook for MUCH more money than I can pay. And my family's future will be ruined. I will be in debt for decades.

I am considering suicide - I won't be able to face my own children or spouse.

From someone who has been there (twice with a third coming!) there are very palatable solutions to these debts, long TTPs for instance so many options other than the one you are talking about. Share your pain with your spouse they will understand they always do.

I had a long TTP on both my previous indiscretions and found myself able to pay them off much sooner.

Talk to someone please, it's never the option ever.

I can also recommend Gilbert Tax, they won't kid you about any of this but they are brilliant at taking the weight from your shoulders, they worked miracles on getting interest on late payment fees removed and in one case the fees removed too which were quite sizeable, and long TTPs for me too.

[cojak]

I've just received an email from HMRC stating that McCarthy Denning are no longer representing me going forward in my appeal.

Has any other former Procorre user who had expected to be represented by McCarthy Denning received this?

That's a very good question.

I suspect that there weren't enough takers to make it worth their while.