Reply to: Overdrawn Capital Account Scheme (Aston Mae / Glen Mae / Procorre)

[GregRickshaw]

This is my beef with the argument presented - the accountant should have been in the dock and penalised along with the defendant. It was the accountant who introduced the scheme to Bray and so was obviously not an independent person to give advice, in fact they must have taken a hefty commission to persuade her to join. (And she didn’t think it was her business to ask about the accountant’s commission? Bloody hell, the naïvety! )

The accountant should have been sanctioned and their license revoked.

I know that it’s not part of the legislation but it bloody well should be.

How true and seemingly a potent of how the MSC outcomes/trials will go, innocents flogged in court, hounded, bankrupt, homeless (all manner of personal breakdown of family possibly even losses of life) accountants/scheme providers off scot free - again.

Debt transfer beyond directors of LTDs... - my arse ... it won't happen.

Get the accountants in the dock

[cojak]

(And welcome back ILikeTax!)

[cojak]

I'm not commenting on your facts or about getting independent professional tax advice, but here's a recent FTT case in relation to what tax advice has actually been taken in relation to an EBT scheme (short answer= None). HMRC raised penalties of 21% of the tax due and the tribunal did not change that: https://assets.caselaw.nationalarchi...c_2024_787.pdf

This is my beef with the argument presented - the accountant should have been in the dock and penalised along with the defendant. It was the accountant who introduced the scheme to Bray and so was obviously not an independent person to give advice, in fact they must have taken a hefty commission to persuade her to join. (And she didn’t think it was her business to ask about the accountant’s commission? Bloody hell, the naïvety! )

The accountant should have been sanctioned and their license revoked.

I know that it’s not part of the legislation but it bloody well should be.

[cojak]

I can’t help but think that HMRC consider an internet search by yourself to be included in due diligence, as this forum with it’s numerous warnings (amongst others) would have come up in that search. I know this as the Admin at that time was particularly hot on SEO.

This post from 2007 explain why: https://forums.contractoruk.com/gene...fit-trust.html

[Iliketax]

Over 30 months since HMRC initially contacted me and I am still waiting for a settlement figure and I am still completely in the dark as to how HMRC are determining the amount they say I owe vs the income I received. I am still unable to reconcile the number they say I received as income in the period they are investigating by more than 100k and every day that goes by I am being charged daily interest

A few weeks ago, I also received a letter outlining penalty charges being considered. Although I consider I took 'reasonable care' throughout the process, at a minimum HMRC will categorise my actions as 'careless' or possibly even 'deliberate' despite asking questions and taking advice from my accountant before signing up. I have documented emails from Procorre saying it's not a "scheme", that HMRC do not care about as they are considered an interested party. Scammer/crook is probably a more accurate adjective.

It seems that the behaviour in Counter Avoidance is to automatically deem it as a minimum of careless, unless the person can demonstrate they took reasonable care and the bar to convince HMRC is exceptionally high e.g. proof I check the qualifications of the person giving the advice, double checking the advice given, checking if the accountant was/is a qualified Chartered Tax advisor, having the advice documented in writing etc.

The penalty charge, if deemed careless will be in the 15 - 30% range. Adding everything up, tax owed, penalty charge, interest, NICs etc I am currently estimating the total to be around 70% of my total income received over those years. Eye-watering amounts that hardly seems "fair".

I'm not commenting on your facts or about getting independent professional tax advice, but here's a recent FTT case in relation to what tax advice has actually been taken in relation to an EBT scheme (short answer= None). HMRC raised penalties of 21% of the tax due and the tribunal did not change that: https://assets.caselaw.nationalarchi...c_2024_787.pdf

[mightyspur]

Over 30 months since HMRC initially contacted me and I am still waiting for a settlement figure and I am still completely in the dark as to how HMRC are determining the amount they say I owe vs the income I received. I am still unable to reconcile the number they say I received as income in the period they are investigating by more than 100k and every day that goes by I am being charged daily interest

A few weeks ago, I also received a letter outlining penalty charges being considered. Although I consider I took 'reasonable care' throughout the process, at a minimum HMRC will categorise my actions as 'careless' or possibly even 'deliberate' despite asking questions and taking advice from my accountant before signing up. I have documented emails from Procorre saying it's not a "scheme", that HMRC do not care about as they are considered an interested party. Scammer/crook is probably a more accurate adjective.

It seems that the behaviour in Counter Avoidance is to automatically deem it as a minimum of careless, unless the person can demonstrate they took reasonable care and the bar to convince HMRC is exceptionally high e.g. proof I check the qualifications of the person giving the advice, double checking the advice given, checking if the accountant was/is a qualified Chartered Tax advisor, having the advice documented in writing etc.

The penalty charge, if deemed careless will be in the 15 - 30% range. Adding everything up, tax owed, penalty charge, interest, NICs etc I am currently estimating the total to be around 70% of my total income received over those years. Eye-watering amounts that hardly seems "fair".

[frontmen242]

I'm sure Graham is excellent at his job and his knowledge is unquestioned. However I do wonder when these things pop up on LinkedIn if it's just another push of their services. I would say contact specialists only when one has been contacted rather than this approach WTT (and others) seem to have of 'poking the bear'.

LOL I am all for not poking that particular bear....

[GregRickshaw]

Just noticed on LinkedIn from Graham - WTT Procorre UK the following post... just to quote

"Active cases update - Procorre

It would seem that one of the Procorre entities - Procorre UK Ltd company number 07644727 - has applied for and been granted the appointment of a liquidator.

This is one of several Procorre entities which we believe may be liable for tax on sums paid to those who used their services.

We will therefore take some advice and in all probability make a claim on that liquidator.

If you have used Procorre and HMRC is chasing you, I would recommend a similar action."

I'm sure Graham is excellent at his job and his knowledge is unquestioned. However I do wonder when these things pop up on LinkedIn if it's just another push of their services. I would say contact specialists only when one has been contacted rather than this approach WTT (and others) seem to have of 'poking the bear'.

[frontmen242]

Just noticed on LinkedIn from Graham - WTT Procorre UK the following post... just to quote

"Active cases update - Procorre

It would seem that one of the Procorre entities - Procorre UK Ltd company number 07644727 - has applied for and been granted the appointment of a liquidator.

This is one of several Procorre entities which we believe may be liable for tax on sums paid to those who used their services.

We will therefore take some advice and in all probability make a claim on that liquidator.

If you have used Procorre and HMRC is chasing you, I would recommend a similar action."

[interestedparty]

I believe, from experience and from following what has been going on/is currently going on with anything 'loan charge' related, there is nothing you can really do.

Cut your losses with WTT fighting for you (it's a cost which makes you feel good but ultimately will just be money down the drain). I have nothing against WTT or any of the big name advisers they do a job but they can't win anything for you.

Not a single case has been won properly enough to help you, every precedence is against you. HMRC ignore everyone from parliament so the AP group won't help you.

Possibly use them (WTT as you already have a relationship) to talk with HMRC to get yourself a long TTP, get your MPs help on the lengthy TTP. If HMRC believe they will get their money back over 10 years they'll take it.

Time to get on with your life by getting a settlement, I'm not saying this can happen but good tax lawyers may be able to help you remove some late payment fees (and the interest on the late payment fees - probably two or three thousand ££) it's worth trying.

I starred down the barrel many years ago, got a long TTP and managed to pay it off long before the term, getting the settlement was a huge relief to me, after years of anger.

Obviously all the above is massive assumptions I don't know your life situation so please bear that in mind.

I recently agreed a 12 1/2 year TTP with HMRC which will take me to 76 years of age. It is affordable, for now, and I hope that some intervening event, such as an inheritance, will allow me to repay it in full. It's horrendous and I feel stupid, cheated, bitter, but also very relieved that at least my position is now clear.

[GregRickshaw]

So I’ve been discussing with WTT over the last couple of weeks about this whole situation and they have looked at bank statements and returns etc and they have calculated the taxable amount as circa £200k. I have no idea what to do.

I believe, from experience and from following what has been going on/is currently going on with anything 'loan charge' related, there is nothing you can really do.

Cut your losses with WTT fighting for you (it's a cost which makes you feel good but ultimately will just be money down the drain). I have nothing against WTT or any of the big name advisers they do a job but they can't win anything for you.

Not a single case has been won properly enough to help you, every precedence is against you. HMRC ignore everyone from parliament so the AP group won't help you.

Possibly use them (WTT as you already have a relationship) to talk with HMRC to get yourself a long TTP, get your MPs help on the lengthy TTP. If HMRC believe they will get their money back over 10 years they'll take it.

Time to get on with your life by getting a settlement, I'm not saying this can happen but good tax lawyers may be able to help you remove some late payment fees (and the interest on the late payment fees - probably two or three thousand ££) it's worth trying.

I starred down the barrel many years ago, got a long TTP and managed to pay it off long before the term, getting the settlement was a huge relief to me, after years of anger.

Obviously all the above is massive assumptions I don't know your life situation so please bear that in mind.

[woody1]

So I’ve been discussing with WTT over the last couple of weeks about this whole situation and they have looked at bank statements and returns etc and they have calculated the taxable amount as circa £200k. I have no idea what to do.

Is all of that £200k assessed in a single tax year (under the 2019 Loan Charge)? If so, ouch.

[ProcorreVictim]

So I’ve been discussing with WTT over the last couple of weeks about this whole situation and they have looked at bank statements and returns etc and they have calculated the taxable amount as circa £200k. I have no idea what to do.

[cojak]

And from HMRC list of dodgy tax avoidance schemes

One that slipped the net.

29th February 2024:

Abchurch Ltd

and how the Hell did I miss this one???

A drum roll pulease for….

Procorre LLP!

[woody1]

Yes, I assume HMRC have done that, which is understandable for acquisitions where the total valuation is the same as the the total people had received via the ODCA prior. Considering I didn't receive the total amount my company was valued at in total earn out payments over the 3 and a bit years and only had 14k received via ODCA beforehand, it still feels incredibly unfair, as I am affectively being taxed on income I didn't actually receive.

That's the Loan Charge for you. It can produce unfair outcomes. Imagine someone receiving £60k/year in loans for 5 years, and then finding that the whole lot (£300k) is taxed in 2018/19. The tax bill would be far higher than if the income had been assessed in each of the years the loans were actually received.

The scheme you used was complex/convoluted (as well as contrived), as exemplified by Iliketax's analysis above.

Is HMRC's interpretation of the Loan Charge legislation correct in this case? Who knows.