Reply to: Can you start tomorrow

[BlasterBates]

No it isn't, its a few days free consultancy before they hire you. Now prove that wasn't what was agreed.

....was the restaurant owner offering a free meal as a promotion?

....did the housowner invite him in and gave him the telly?

and why are you now at the police station if you offered your services for free?

Sure theoretically an agent could brazen it out and maybe could swing it, put the point is this isn't fraudester and neither is the client and no-one is going to lie, because if a PC plod start appearing around the client or agency asking uncomfortable questions they'd be out of their jobs.

Lets put it this way I think it is highly unlikely that if you start before the ink is on your contract that the client and agency will do a runner or lie about you not working, when you did.

[vetran]

If you do work you are entitled to payment. If an agent were to lie, that's fraud, not just a business dispute.

I wouldn't have any qualms about doing it.

Just following up the theoretical "agency denies it scenario", the client isn't going to lie to Mr PC Plod.

Getting you to work a few days and then deciding not to pay is equivalent to doing a runner in a restaurant.

No it isn't, its a few days free consultancy before they hire you. Now prove that wasn't what was agreed.

[BlasterBates]

If you do work you are entitled to payment. If an agent were to lie, that's fraud, not just a business dispute.

I wouldn't have any qualms about doing it.

Just following up the theoretical "agency denies it scenario", the client isn't going to lie to Mr PC Plod.

Getting you to work a few days and then deciding not to pay is equivalent to doing a runner in a restaurant.

[Hiram King Of Tyre]

Qdos review done, some changes made to the contract as a result and everything is hunky dory

[The Spartan]

Yes you have. As soon as you turned up your contract was agreed so have an implied contract which will be the last copy you and the agent saw. Chances of getting it altered now will be very slim.

Slim I'd agree but not impossible, I managed it on this gig to get the contract amended to reflect my actual working practices.

Though I was rather forceful about it, it can be done

[TheFaQQer]

What are the defaults if nothing is on the table?

IIRC, it falls back to the standard terms and conditions of the client. May be completely wrong on this, but somewhere in the back of my mind, that rings a bell.

May be Butler Machine Tools case?

[TykeMerc]

Personally, I'd work on risk (trust) for a few days then walk if things weren't satisfactory.

Business risk and all that.

That's much the approach I take, not been stiffed (yet), but there's always a first time. I mitigate the risk somewhat by being a bit picky on clients.
My private (non agency) clients get my contracts with my terms

[Platypus]

Personally, I'd work on risk (trust) for a few days then walk if things weren't satisfactory.

Business risk and all that.

[northernladuk]

Stek, are you direct to a client or through an agency? Most articles about no contracts obviously focus on the IR35 problems it can cause but....

A comment on this page about agency contracts...

What NOT to do with freelance contracts :: Contractor UK

3/Using no contract at all

The Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Business Regulations 2003 state that, where a freelancer is supplied through an agency, any terms agreed must be in writing. Despite this, and normal common sense, many freelancers still fail to agree and sign any written terms before starting a project. The problems with this are obvious. Few, if any, protections will be implied (i.e. there will be no notice to terminate, no specific timing for payments, etc), the client can argue what was agreed and HMRC have a free hand to imply the actual terms of the relationship when assessing tax.

And another interesting read...

Contracting - Do I really need a contract? :: Contractor UK

Thirdly, and to answer your directly, this approach is not safe. Operating without a written contract means the terms of your relationship may not be clear. If anything goes wrong, you will be exposed. This is true in areas such as the terms and dates for payment, insurance, liability for your actions, ownership of any intellectual property, notice and reasons to terminate, etc. As a minimum, you would need to be able to show evidence of any implied agreed terms through emails or letter to stand any hope of being protected should the client not pay, throw you out, claim ownership of your know-how, etc. But even then this may not be enough. There will of course be commercial pressures on you and your client to get the job done which may force both parties to 'play fair' if there is a dispute before the proper contract is signed, though relying on an agreeable response is a very dangerous leap of faith.

[northernladuk]

This is interesting for me cos I turned up on site without a contract at all - none - still no sign of one (being paid though - weekly too!)

Being as this is with IBM and their notorious full term of contract notice from contractor - I think I've got away with it if I get itchy feet, I cannot see how any outlandish contract terms can be enforced now.

What are the defaults if nothing is on the table?

I don't think being paid is a problem with not having a contract in place. Everyone kind of assumes if you do work you get paid. When you get paid could be a problem, they will default to their standard system which you would expect is fit for purpose but you will be hard pressed to argue with them if they start paying a week late etc as you have nothing to wave at them.

I would assume they would try and fall back on their standard contract as it is the one they would have supplied you with and know. It is then up to you to argue any points that they pull and you don't agree with or let a judge sort it out. I am sure in 99% of cases everything would run smoothly but if you end up in the 1% that you actually need to fall back on something such as RoS, notice period, handcuffs etc then it's down to who can get a solicitor letter drafted first wins I guess. They will argue their case, you argue it doesn't include you as you didn't see it and let handbags begin. Unless it is really serious I can't see a company fighting minor clauses though.

I would be surprised if not signing a contract gives you carte blanche to do what you want though but could be wrong.

Depends on what you call outlandish as well. A no notice contract is become pretty common place now so could be argued is quite reasonable.

At the end of the day a contract isn't really worth the paper it is written on until it goes legal. Up to that point it is just negotiating/fighting your corner. Look at all the contract issues we have on the board and I don't think I have seen anything go legal yet in all these years.

EDIT : Except maybe that kittykat business awhile ago but I didn't even believe that anyway.

[stek]

Yes you have. As soon as you turned up your contract was agreed so have an implied contract which will be the last copy you and the agent saw. Chances of getting it altered now will be very slim.

This is interesting for me cos I turned up on site without a contract at all - none - still no sign of one (being paid though - weekly too!)

Being as this is with IBM and their notorious full term of contract notice from contractor - I think I've got away with it if I get itchy feet, I cannot see how any outlandish contract terms can be enforced now.

What are the defaults if nothing is on the table?

[northernladuk]

Yes mate. Not signed the contract yet though

Yes you have. As soon as you turned up your contract was agreed so have an implied contract which will be the last copy you and the agent saw. Chances of getting it altered now will be very slim.

[Hiram King Of Tyre]

So are you being a good little bum on seat today Hiram?

Yes mate. Not signed the contract yet though

[d000hg]

So are you being a good little bum on seat today Hiram?

[TheFaQQer]

I see the point but also the fact is 9 times out of 10 the client won't accept a sub, especially as in most places where you sit around waiting for logins, lappy, access badge etc.

Working practises make it unfeasible, especially given the short term of most contracts nowadays.

I agree best to cover all bases but part of me says what's the point, especially since I've been contracting since 1992 or so and only since coming here have I ever bothered with contract checking.

Generally, I agree. Most agencies have a reasonably IR35-friendly contract, but some have some nasty clauses in that I would want to check before I accepted it. I had one contract which named me personally, had the individual as being liable, poor payment terms, no RoS, etc. etc.

Of course, if I opted out, then that could be changed.