Reply to: The sad thing

[darmstadt]

Yet we can't celebrate her undoubted achievements (e.g. first Female PM, part of the end of the cold war) and her age. You need to compare her to a notorious war criminal.

First UK female prime minister:

- Sirimavo Bandaranaike (1916-2000). She was the prime minister of Sri Lanka three times: from 21 July 1960 to 27 March 1965, from 29 May 1970 to 23 July 1977 and from 14 November 1994 to 10 August 2000.
- Indira Gandhi (1917-1984). She was the prime minister of India twice, from 19 January 1966 to 24 March 1977 and from 14 January 1980 to 31 October 1984.
- Golda Meir (1898-1978), prime minister of Israel from 17 March 1969 to 3 June 1974.
- Elisabeth Domitien (1926-2005), prime minister of the Central African Republic from 3 Jan 1975 to 7 April 1976.

[ZARDOZ]

People are happy to attack a sick old lady who was forced out of office 22 years ago.

I think she would have found it quite disrespectful to be described like that.

[vetran]

The really sad thing is

People are happy to attack a sick old lady who was forced out of office 22 years ago.

She presided over an extremely difficult time and the vast majority of professional commentators consider she did a pretty good job of it.
Even Livingstone managed to be nice about her.

Her famous critics are people like Scargill, Abbot & Glenda Jackson, Morrisey, Bono, Kinnock and Drama teachers people nearly every CUK poster would consider a bit loopy.

Yet we can't celebrate her undoubted achievements (e.g. first Female PM, part of the end of the cold war) and her age. You need to compare her to a notorious war criminal.

She was great, she may not have been nice.

[ZARDOZ]

Very true SAS. Another example is Rover. Blair killed it. He should have kept it going for ever pumping millions in just to keep the industrial base going.

That's is not exactly true is it, by the time Blair came in it was already fooked and somewhat diminished. Thatcher started the ball rolling but Major sold out the japanese collaboration to BMW splitting off Land Rover et al. How ironic given BMW started out making Austin Sevens under licence.

Strange that all those manuacturers we shouldn't have kept according to those proud of our demise, are now amongst the best selling and reviewed cars on the market.

But answer this, how did they manage to turn Germany in the world biggest exporter of goods while we cast our companies aside. We keep hearing that was best for Britain yet Last year their exports exceeded the value of our 1 trillion debt. That's nothing to be proud of.

[fullyautomatix]

Feck me imposssible though it may appear, I may even have over-estimated your intelligence.
What are your thoughts (I use the term with great optimism but not much hope) about the destruction of Britain's industrial base under Thatcher? Or do you think it doesn't matter?

Very true SAS. Another example is Rover. Blair killed it. He should have kept it going for ever pumping millions in just to keep the industrial base going.

[Sysman]

Well the point is really to be made for the anti-thatcherites who claim she cut stuff to the bone. In reality she didn't. She even allowed benefits to rise with inflation which the current lot aren't doing.

Wasn't NI raised substantially in the early 80s?

I wasn't there then but I heard my UK based colleagues grumbling about it.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

So taxes prior to 1979 were lower than in say 1989?

You didn't read that Accountancy Age link, did you?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

What is also interesting is that clearly the bile against Thatcher comes from a group of people who have been personally enriched as a result of her policies yet none of them are prepared to argue that this is not the case.

I have consistently argued this point with you.

1. Whether or Not Thatcher's policies directly served to personally enrich me cannot possibly be known - without the benefit of a time machine it's impossible to say what the alternative path would have been - it's certainly far from certain I'd have personally been worse off.
2. Disagreeing with some or all of Thatcher's policies doesn't make you a "leftie" and therefore an enemy of the State - this is a special piece of nastiness from that era, actually. It is also not "bile".
3. Being nasty and/or a hypocrite isn't the sole preserve of "The Left" any more than it is of "The Right".
4. I've never said she was wrong about everything.
5. I find the entire notion that I should be "grateful" in some forelock-tugging way to any politician, anathema - they do what they do for their own reasons, they don't need my gratitude.

[xoggoth]

Try checking the facts on those poor miners and other workers. In 1972 the miners went on strike and were awarded a rise that made them the highest paid manual workers in the UK. That was probably fair enough considering the nature of the job but in 1974 they kicked off again and were given another 34% rise. In 1976 they went out again. Or the London Dockyard workers. They had been paid on piecework but struck to get an agreement for guaranteed weekly pay no matter how little they did. This was at a time when all the work was going to Felixstowe and importers were moving out of the London docks due to all the industrial action. Some were being paid for doing nothing much of the time.

Not a great Thatcher fan, her approach to privatisation was too dogmatic in my view, but taking on the Unions was one really good thing she did and those poor miners and dockers only had themselves to blame. We need another Thatcher to tackle Unite, Unison and the RMT who expect the rest of us to foot the bill for pensions, salary and job security that most taxpayers don't get. Those overpaid door operatives on the London Underground could all be replaced by technology.

[SupremeSpod]

Most people alive today weren't alive when Hitler was either, but he's still pretty unpopular

Not amongst the Germans and Austrians he wasn't. Funny how they changed their tune as soon as the fat lady started singing.

[Mich the Tester]

Most people alive today weren't alive when Hitler was either, but he's still pretty unpopular

He bombed my granddad's local chip shop.

[d000hg]

Didn't read the whole thread but what I don't get is why 20 odd year olds hate her when they haven't a clue about it... From what I can see in the papers nearly every single person involved in the 'parties' in the pictures weren't even old enough to vote.

Most people alive today weren't alive when Hitler was either, but he's still pretty unpopular

[Peoplesoft bloke]

This is one of the milder statements uttered by the Left since she died.
Some of the things that have been said make me ashamed to be British. Left wingers in Britain are showing how unpleasant they really are.

It's not a "statement issued by the left" , you utter, utter moron. It is me giving an opinion about DA. I thought it before Thatcher died and I still do.

I am arguing about DA's cliche ridden nonsense - specifically I am refuting his totally incorrect statement that Mrs Thatcher "cut my taxes" when she emphatically didn't.

This isn't about respect for the dead or otherwise - it's a simple statement of facts about spending and taxation during the Thatcher years. Such debates took place on here before her death and presumably will continue - sometimes morons try to interject with nonsensical dogma, that can't be helped; but I don't think it's disrespectful to counter it, and I don't think Thatcher would have thought so either.

For the avoidance of doubt - I am not celebrating her death in any way; but I am not suddenly going to start worshipping her just because she's dead either.

I am not a "Left winger" as you so quaintly put it - and if you think I'm unpleasant that's your problem - you're not giving a fabulous impression yourself.

[Taita]

Didn't read the whole thread but what I don't get is why 20 odd year olds hate her when they haven't a clue about it... From what I can see in the papers nearly every single person involved in the 'parties' in the pictures weren't even old enough to vote. Am sure it has been said before but that's my tuppence worth.

Exactly. Having had the extreme misfortune to be related (by marriage) to some teachers and having met their friends occasionally during those years, I think the youngsters were very painstakingly indoctrinated in anti-Thatcher views.

I suppose we should be grateful that the kids at least learned enough History to know the Thatcher was once Prime Mininster (wot dat?).

[DodgyAgent]

She had the revenue from north sea oil, but rather than invest that wisely she mainly spent it on the unemployment/welfare bill she had helped create. We had no underclass prior to Thatcherism.

So are you saying that she should have spent money on keeping uncompetitive businesses going? bearing in mind that they would still have remained nationalised and under Union control . Or should she have stimulated investment in new businesses instead of paying welfare? Or does money grow on trees? (if it does did anyone tell the IMF?)

As for underclass they are casualties of labour saving technologies and failing socialist institutions (that should have prepared them in the school system for a different world of work)