Reply to: Winter tyres vs 4WD

[VectraMan]

My mrs used to have a peugeot 206, it had very narrow tyres in comparison to most modern cars yet it was brilliant in the snow. It could get up hills that BMWs et al couldn't. I believe this is because narrow tryes cut through the snow and grip while wide tyres sit on the snow and skid.

If you ever watch Rally Sweden, they all have incredibly skinny wheels with studded ice tyres and drive at silly speeds.

Having most the weight over the drive wheels helps too. That gives FWD cars and Porsches an advantage that BMWs won't have. My S2000 with its perfect 50/50 weight distribution and wide extreme performance summer tyres is not good.

[captainham]

I've never tried them, but I'm told winter tyres are very good in snow. It's just a question of whether it's worth the investment for the amount of snow we're likely to get.

I have to say, they're pretty mega. Even in dry conditions below 7 degrees is still good, as the rubber is softer so stays more flexible versus summer tyres.

If you can get hold of some steel wheels or some eBay wheels, then you've nothing to lose really as they will extend the life of your normal tyres by an equal amount, so they're basically cost neutral.

A trolley jack is helpful, as the standard emergency jacks in most cars will have you in tears when it's bitterly cold and you're not even halfway through winding the first feckin' wheel up.

[d000hg]

The point about 4wd not making the tyres any better at braking is valid, but you're still going to have far greater control with 4wd than 2wd with the same tyres. It wasn't mentioned if pater is talking front or rear 2WD because that's a huge difference! I remember watching all the powerful BMWs unable to get off the estate up the slightest of inclines last time we had proper snow, while crappy old fiesta/focus/etc drove round them without issues.

Also though, wouldn't a 4WD typically have better individual-wheel braking making it better on bad tyres anyway?

[sasguru]

So to summarise, as I want to preserve my inheritance, the best solution is a 2nd hand Fiat Panda 4x4 equipped with skinny winter tyres?
Come to think of it, that's what they use a lot in the Dolomites. Place is crawling with ancient Panda 4x4s that go up the steep snowy inclines like mountain goats.

[the_rangdo]

I've a set of narrower, higher profile alloys with winter tyres for my 530D

Wasn't defeated last winter with that combination - actually made driving in the white stuff a bit of fun. Hit some black ice and summer tyres will let go with no real warning and no control afterwards. A couple of times on the M606 where a few other cars had hit black ice and bounced off the barrier it got light but was perfectly controllable.

The extra cost is absorbed to some extent as the 'summer' setup isn't being used so it'll even out over time - that and reducing the likelihood of an expensive claim

[captainham]

As others have said, 4wd is great except for stopping.

The Impreza I overtook with ease last winter in my humble winter-tyred Fiat wasn't too pleased about it and overtook me back, only to slide straight on at the next roundabout and almost slid into a lamppost.

[Sysman]

My mrs used to have a peugeot 206, it had very narrow tyres in comparison to most modern cars yet it was brilliant in the snow. It could get up hills that BMWs et al couldn't. I believe this is because narrow tryes cut through the snow and grip while wide tyres sit on the snow and skid.

I had that with a Morris Minor.

Though a couple of paving stones and a few bags of sand in the boot helped.

[Sysman]

The other thing is when it comes to drive, most cars have open diffs and are therefore 1WD. Whichever driven wheel has the least amount of grip will sit there spinning, and you'll go nowhere. 4WDs generally have cleverer diffs, as after all that's the point of having 4WD.

That was occasionally a problem with my ancient Land Rover with no diff lock.

In really muddy/snowy/icy conditions you could get 1 wheel at the front and 1 wheel at the back spinning.

Bunging it into low ratio so that you didn't get to the spinning stage usually prevented you getting stuck though.

[ZARDOZ]

My mrs used to have a peugeot 206, it had very narrow tyres in comparison to most modern cars yet it was brilliant in the snow. It could get up hills that BMWs et al couldn't. I believe this is because narrow tryes cut through the snow and grip while wide tyres sit on the snow and skid.

[VectraMan]

The other thing is when it comes to drive, most cars have open diffs and are therefore 1WD. Whichever driven wheel has the least amount of grip will sit there spinning, and you'll go nowhere. 4WDs generally have cleverer diffs, as after all that's the point of having 4WD.

I've never tried them, but I'm told winter tyres are very good in snow. It's just a question of whether it's worth the investment for the amount of snow we're likely to get.

[BlasterBates]

Winter tyres are what you need. Obviously on ice you're going to skid but on soft snow or slush they're very good. Where as a car with normal tyres will slide regardless of whether it has 4WD or not Winter tyres on the whole will grip.

In Germany and Switzerland it's compulsory to have winter tyres in snowy conditions, they don't accept a 4WD as an alternative.

When I switched to Winter tyres I noticed a big difference, the car never slides. On normal tyres it feels like you're on an ice rink, obviously 4WD will give you an advantage but you still need to be "Stirling Moss" to keep the car on the road.

[Old Hack]

My first 4x4 had 'normal' road tyres and were as good as tits on a bull off the road, or one ice and snow. One famous foray off the road onto a common where we played cricket saw me spin uselessly and get stuck quickly. I then invested in all terrain tyres and there was a remarkable increase in grip on snow, ice and mud. However, on the road, the noise increased slightly and the tyres were kind of flighty braking from high speed in the wet.

Currently using AT tyres on the GL and they're great in all conditions. Depends what Pater bought as his 4x4 really. But road tyres will only be good off road if you have low ration switch and diff lock for your 4x4 a la the rangey and disco, unlike the ML/X5.

AT tyres all the way.

EDIT - Turn off ABS and ESP in snow. My 535d had ESP which was unswitchable and in the snow, it was fecking useless to even think about going anywhere, as you need to be able to spin the tyres in the snow and you also need to be able to skid as sometimes, only building up a ramp of snow in front of the tyres will slow you down in the cold.

[Troll]

Ground clearance in snow is key decision for choice between 4x4 and normal car with winter tyres

Compacted snow to sill level is the thing that stops me in my 4x4... wheel traction is secondary


HTH
cretin

[eek]

Aye that would be my impression - and most accidents on snow and ice are caused when you brake ....

4wd and winter tyres are different matters.

Winter tyres allow you to break and control where you go without skidding. 4wd allows you to get places 2wd won't go.

[Pondlife]

Surely you need them both.

Without the 4wd you'll not be going anywhere if he lives somewhat remotely making the braking problem moot.

If he is able to get down the track, he's going to need to be able to stop the thing.

I realise this post is of no help whatsoever.