Reply to: Why agent ask about rates

[Old Hack]

Of course not. You were the cool kid at school with loads of girlfriends, great at sport AND won all the academic prizes, blah blah blah.

Hmm. There's this program on TV where people worth hundreds of £millions negotiate to buy shares in small companies. They don't lie or haggle, they just name a figure and let the other person choose.

When you haggle in an Eastern market you don't need to make up stories, you just haggle. Do you really think the salesman can't see though your amateur dramatics, he's a professional and pretends to buy your story to give you the price you could have got anyway. You're like one of those fools on The Apprentice in the negotiation task.

The best negotiators I've seen are blunt and honest. They don't spin stories, they just make it clear what they will pay and make it clear they're not messing about.

Oh dear, you really are a childish person aren't you.

Buying a car and purchasing a necklace for your boyfriend in a Moroccan bazaar are entirely different things.

I was great at cricket and rugby, but rubbish at everything else. Had girlfriends, like normal hetrosexual teenagers. Was extremely good at Maths and Physics, but lazy at the other stuff.

Now, when it comes to sales, and of course purchasing, it depends who holds the aces. If you can get yourself into the best position, by means foul or fair, you do.

As I said, I have saved projects lots of money, by deceit, by playing people against each other. I do this with agents, as do others.

It seems that you are in the minority.

Of course, there are times you simply put a figure up and don't budge, but others where you lie. Failing to see this, illuminates your childishness, nothing else.

[EternalOptimist]

If you read your 4yo a story about Harry Potter or Jack and the Beanstalk they'll think it's real.

But as it happens I don't have kids and if I did I probably wouldn't tell them about Santa except as another bedtime story. I think you're only playing devil's advocate though because you come across as a fairly honest person who knows the difference between lying and makebelieve.

I am bored, tis true, but the point I was making is a genuine one. People lie, often for a very good reason
I lied to my kids

when my 5 yr old daughters hamster died of hypothermia one easter, I bought her a new one

when she asked me why it looked different, I told her that he had gone up to heaven to see baby jesus and to tell him that he was cold, so baby jesus gave him a brand new coat to wear.

It made her happy. It made me happy.

[d000hg]

Never once been intimidated by anyone

Of course not. You were the cool kid at school with loads of girlfriends, great at sport AND won all the academic prizes, blah blah blah.

If you see negotiation as simply saying this is the price and standing your ground, then you are obviously tremendously bad at it and very naive.

Hmm. There's this program on TV where people worth hundreds of £millions negotiate to buy shares in small companies. They don't lie or haggle, they just name a figure and let the other person choose.

When you haggle in an Eastern market you don't need to make up stories, you just haggle. Do you really think the salesman can't see though your amateur dramatics, he's a professional and pretends to buy your story to give you the price you could have got anyway. You're like one of those fools on The Apprentice in the negotiation task.

The best negotiators I've seen are blunt and honest. They don't spin stories, they just make it clear what they will pay and make it clear they're not messing about.

[Old Hack]

If you read your 4yo a story about Harry Potter or Jack and the Beanstalk they'll think it's real.

But as it happens I don't have kids and if I did I probably wouldn't tell them about Santa except as another bedtime story. I think you're only playing devil's advocate though because you come across as a fairly honest person who knows the difference between lying and makebelieve.

Who has also suggested he is less than honest with his dealings with agents....

So whilst I am sure EO has a great understanding of lying and telling tales, he also lies, like most. In negotiations, that is what normal people do.

So you'd sell Santa claus as fiction, to a kid. I am now very happy you're not going to be adding to the gene pool, as are the children you're not going to have.

Took my eldest to Lapland a couple of years back. Can still remember the unadulterated joy on her face for the week we were there. Taking the middle child there this year.

[d000hg]

No I am saying that you think it's ok to lie to your kids but not to an agent

If you read your 4yo a story about Harry Potter or Jack and the Beanstalk they'll think it's real.

But as it happens I don't have kids and if I did I probably wouldn't tell them about Santa except as another bedtime story. I think you're only playing devil's advocate though because you come across as a fairly honest person who knows the difference between lying and makebelieve.

[Old Hack]

People who need to lie are insecure. Most people lie. I really don't see any paradox here.

You clearly feel intimidated by the agent/salesman and not able to stand up to him and stick your ground. So you invent lies to avoid confrontation.


EO: oh I see. Are you saying that fiction and lies are the same thing?

No, he's saying if you're ok lying to your kids that santa claus exists, it is still lying, regardless ihow you dress it up.

Never once been intimidated by anyone, aside from Ron Dennis as it happens. If you see negotiation as simply saying this is the price and standing your ground, then you are obviously tremendously bad at it and very naive. Looking at the other contributions you make, you simply make all this very obvious.

I once got a software company to give my project it's gear for free, as I told them the other leading candidate was going to. Saved the project £80k. Love to have seen what you would have done...

[EternalOptimist]

EO: oh I see. Are you saying that fiction and lies are the same thing?

No I am saying that you think it's ok to lie to your kids but not to an agent

[d000hg]

So, everyone apart from you is not telling the truth about rates.

Yet I am the insecure one...

Well, there you go d000hg

People who need to lie are insecure. Most people lie. I really don't see any paradox here.

You clearly feel intimidated by the agent/salesman and not able to stand up to him and stick your ground. So you invent lies to avoid confrontation.


EO: oh I see. Are you saying that fiction and lies are the same thing?

[OwlHoot]

I've had 2 instances in the last 12 months where the end client has asked to see evidence of the rate I said I was currently on before they would offer, this wasn't the agent requesting this it was the end client !

You'd be quite within your rights, and not legally or morally in the wrong whatsoever, IMHO, to show them a fake contract or invoice with the larger rate you had told them.

That is absolutely what I would do in the circs, assuming I still wanted to pursue the contract, which I probably wouldn't.

You're not obliged to be honest about information which someone isn't entitled to know.

[ELBBUBKUNPS]

That's a bit of a curveball question. Why?

That's pretty outrageous. Did they use this info for anything, or simply demand to see it?

Just said they won't offer unless they see evidence of current rate so I sent them a copy of my invoice which I thought odd as I could make one up. I was supprised to, but I suppose some clients have been bitten in terms of getting contractors in with the gift of the gab in interviews, bigging up there current 'fake' rate to give them more cred, only for the client to get them on site and find them to be a pile of poo.

[Old Hack]

That's a bit of a curveball question. Why?

That's pretty outrageous. Did they use this info for anything, or simply demand to see it?

So, everyone apart from you is not telling the truth about rates.

Yet I am the insecure one...

Well, there you go d000hg

[EternalOptimist]

That's a bit of a curveball question. Why?

Did you ever tell them about the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, father Christmas, babies come from under a bush or that grandad has gone on a long holiday and he wont be coming back ?

[d000hg]

Do you have kids doogie ?

That's a bit of a curveball question. Why?

I've had 2 instances in the last 12 months where the end client has asked to see evidence of the rate I said I was currently on before they would offer, this wasnt the agent this was the end client. Seems places are starting to tighten up a bit.

That's pretty outrageous. Did they use this info for anything, or simply demand to see it?

[vetran]

Y
If you can make a "special effort" I think we can land this one.
I am making a special effort.
Can you move a bit on the rate?
No. Well yes, if you want to pay a little more I would accep it. But I won't do it for less.

How do they react if you suggest a shorter payment cycle and they lower their margin as a 'special effort'?

[ELBBUBKUNPS]

I've had 2 instances in the last 12 months where the end client has asked to see evidence of the rate I said I was currently on before they would offer, this wasn't the agent requesting this it was the end client ! Seems places are starting to tighten up a bit, I was lucky usually I add £10-£20 onto my daily rate when asked, but I didn't on this occassion, told them I was on £99 a day and a packet of beef Space Raider crisps.