Reply to: In contrast to Mr Tate this lady has some great observations.

[vetran]

The DWP and the CPS have clearly decided such cases until now are not in the public interest.

The main reason probably that any cases that involve a high sum of monthly maintenance are the jurisdiction of the Family Courts.



Don't have any feelings either way. Why? There are cases where it is clear the child isn't the claimed father's but for various reasons no-one makes a fuss.

Why don't you? I support fixing many issues that only apply to females. Why can't I support issues that only apply to males? This was the whole point of the thread that a feminist actually listened to the MRA and realised they had a point, so far you have countered with inaccuracies & indifference which is what is the standard reaction of feminists.

[SueEllen]

OK so we are now agreed that a father cannot simply take a test and that the only organisation that can order a test is the CMS, the mother can still refuse. I see that as progress.

Yes the CSA was so bad it was renamed.

The police cannot 'prosecute in court' they can recommend to the CPS someone should prosecuted however it is common to say that the Police prosecute. The same is so of the CMS who recommend to the CPS.

either way you end up in court and can end up in prison.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshi...nance-payments

The DWP and the CPS have clearly decided such cases until now are not in the public interest.

The main reason probably that any cases that involve a high sum of monthly maintenance are the jurisdiction of the Family Courts.

So how do you feel about mothers committing blatant fraud?

Don't have any feelings either way. Why? There are cases where it is clear the child isn't the claimed father's but for various reasons no-one makes a fuss.

[vetran]

While the DWP, which the CMS is part of, likes to act like a Court it isn't one.

(CSA stopped taking on cases in 2012)


CMS is not a Court so they can't prosecute anyone

Instead the DWP likes to make people's lives hell on earth so they are the ones who are taken to Court.

OK so we are now agreed that a father cannot simply take a test and that the only organisation that can order a test is the CMS, the mother can still refuse. I see that as progress.

Yes the CSA was so bad it was renamed.

The police cannot 'prosecute in court' they can recommend to the CPS someone should prosecuted however it is common to say that the Police prosecute. The same is so of the CMS who recommend to the CPS.

either way you end up in court and can end up in prison.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshi...nance-payments


So how do you feel about mothers committing blatant fraud?

[SueEllen]

which confirms my point the court has to order it.

While the DWP, which the CMS is part of, likes to act like a Court it isn't one.

(CSA stopped taking on cases in 2012)

as above the gentlemen in the article requested a DNA test nine times. The mother refused repeatedly and the CMS took that as admission of guilt eventually. They still wanted his 'arrears' and didn't prosecute the mother. Is that justice or even reasonable? I suspect your prejudice is colouring your judgement.

CMS is not a Court so they can't prosecute anyone

Instead the DWP likes to make people's lives hell on earth so they are the ones who are taken to Court.

[vetran]

Odd I found this -

https://www.gov.uk/get-a-dna-test/if...-to-get-a-test

which confirms my point the court has to order it.

If the Child Maintenance Service orders you to get a test


If you’re ordered to get a test by the Child Maintenance Service, they’ll tell you which laboratory to use.

as above the gentlemen in the article requested a DNA test nine times. The mother refused repeatedly and the CMS took that as admission of guilt eventually. They still wanted his 'arrears' and didn't prosecute the mother. Is that justice or even reasonable? I suspect your prejudice is colouring your judgement.


You can get a "peace of mind" test which is useless in court and may be used against the father as representing abuse. How would you react if your child said about your ex - "daddy swabbed my cheek"? How would child services react? Easiest way is to just do it before awarding child support.

https://www.alphabiolabs.co.uk/learn...aternity-test/

A mother could refuse a Peace of Mind paternity test. However, a mother’s permission is not needed and the DNA test could still be performed if the father has parental responsibility for the child. Samples can just be analysed from the alleged father and the child. No DNA sample is needed from the mother. However, the Human Genetics Commission and the Department of Health both recommend that the mother should be at least aware of the test if not directly involved and it is viewed that motherless testing could be “harmful to the child, as well as the family unit as a whole”. All reputable testing laboratories would strongly recommend the inclusion of the mother’s sample for this reason alone; however, there are also scientific reasons to include the mother in a test. When the mother is included it is possible to identify which of the child’s DNA comes from her, leaving the paternal DNA to compare against the alleged father. Probability of paternity can thus be calculated with much greater certainty when the mother is tested.

I suspect plenty of 'dads' are doing peace of mind tests with toothbrush swabs then trying to convert those into escaping fraudulent orders. It is an issue and they reckon its at least one in 50 is fraudulent (even though we don't blanket test and 50% of submitted tests result in a none match), so at least 20 kids in most secondary schools!



I hadn't realised that the figures for maternal involved abuse were so high, its not the narrative we are fed.

https://www.anxietycentre.com/statis...tional%20abuse.

Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (NIS-3) US Department of Health and Human Services

• Children in mother-only households are 4 times more likely to be fatally abused than children in father-only households.
• Children in mother-only households are 40% more likely to be sexually abused than children in father-only households.
• Females are 78% of the perpetrators of fatal child abuse, 81% of natural parents who seriously abuse their children, 72% of natural parents who moderately abuse their children, and 65% of natural parents who are inferred to have abused their children.
• Natural mothers are the perpetrators of 93% of physical neglect, 86% of educational neglect, 78% of emotional neglect, 60% of physical abuse, and 55% of emotional abuse.
• When the perpetrator is a non-natural parent, that males are the perpetrators of 90% of physical abuse, 97% of sexual abuse, 74% of emotional abuse, and 82% of educational neglect.
• Children are 20 times more likely to be fatally abused, 22 times more likely to be seriously abused, 20 times more likely to be moderately abused, and 18 times more likely to be sexually abused in households earning less than $15,000 per year than in households earning more than $30,000 per year.
• Boys are four times more likely to be fatally abused and 24% more likely to be seriously abused than girls.
• Between 1986 and 1993, as the number of single-mother households increased dramatically, fatal child abuse increased 46% and serious child abuse increased four fold.

so is 80% mother only really a good model for custody? Should we vet the households and the 'uncles'?

[SueEllen]

and again you are wrong.

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-su...ernity-testing



In the UK a father cannot legally or practically seek a paternity test without the mothers consent. Even if a court directs a test and the mother refuses they cannot compel just draw conclusions about the refusal.


in France its illegal as well.

https://www.service-public.fr/partic...00%20of%20fine.

Odd I found this -

https://www.gov.uk/get-a-dna-test/if...-to-get-a-test

[vetran]

So you are still arguing an adult man is incapable of asking for and paying for a paternity test to check his child(ren) are his, which is currently his legal right.

and again you are wrong.

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-su...ernity-testing

Where one of the adults does not consent to paternity testing, it is possible for a direction to be sought from the court. Where the court issues a direction for the test to be carried out on a blood sample, this does not authorise the taking of blood without consent but 'inferences' can be drawn from an adult’s refusal to provide blood for testing.

In the UK a father cannot legally or practically seek a paternity test without the mothers consent. Even if a court directs a test and the mother refuses they cannot compel just draw conclusions about the refusal.


in France its illegal as well.

https://www.service-public.fr/partic...00%20of%20fine.

[SueEllen]

4&5 are related to paternity fraud. but not the same thing.

4 = before forcing someone to pay CSA at least check they are his kids as part of the process. The presence of the test would probably help to dissuade the practice.
5= make paternity fraud an offence just as lying about your circumstances to get sex is.

So you are still arguing an adult man is incapable of asking for and paying for a paternity test to check his child(ren) are his, which is currently his legal right.

[vetran]

Aha, so 4 and 5 are the same thing.

4&5 are related to paternity fraud. but not the same thing.

4 = before forcing someone to pay CSA at least check they are his kids as part of the process. The presence of the test would probably help to dissuade the practice.
5= make paternity fraud an offence just as lying about your circumstances to get sex is.

[NotAllThere]

4. However it is easy to fake who the father is and demand money with collusion of the CSA, DNA tests would solve that.
https://canadiancrc.com/newspaper_ar...s_16MAY03.aspx
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...group-12399580
5. Sorry if you lie about who the father is is that not paternity fraud? Stealing babies from the hospital is not unknown but its not about 30% as paternity fraud is in some countries.

Aha, so 4 and 5 are the same thing.

[vetran]

a truly shakespearean thred
'much ado about nothing'

The common curse of sadfeckwitty, folly and ignorance, be thine in great revenue!

[sadkingbilly]

a truly shakespearean thread
'much ado about nothing'

[vetran]

1. Do you mean that 25% of domestic violence cases are committed by women, so we'd expect 25% to be locked up? That'd only be true if the severity of the violence showed equal distribution. Does it? I don't know.

Surely for 2, assumptions of innocense when men are accussed of physcial abuse. You know, as the law is.

3. Custody should be based on the best interest of the child, regardless of the gender of the parent.

4 seems a bit weird. Generally it's hard to fake being the mother of a child

5. Is that so men can be equal with women's "maternity fraud"?

6? What's wrong with equal access to the pool of mone? Or are you meaning in case of divorce.

7. More female judges should help this.

8. seems reasonable

But really, adopting a victim attitude is never a good look.

1. apologies 1 in 3 females suffer domestic violence 1 in 4 men suffer domestic violence. I have friends (male) who were attacked and bleeding it was presumed they had started it, the normal response from females - what did you do to upset her. Luckily one recorded his soon to be ex wife telling him he would never see his children because she was hitting herself and blaming it on him. Despite sharing this with the court she still got the majority of custody.
2. Police assume the male is the abuser in the majority of cases, plenty of reports of the man beaten & battered being thrown out of the house. Plenty of evidence of mutual abuse. Men are instantly considered guilty, the statistics say otherwise.
3. its granted 80/20 to the mother, why not grant the father more custody? Because having equal custody means less child support?
4. However it is easy to fake who the father is and demand money with collusion of the CSA, DNA tests would solve that.
https://canadiancrc.com/newspaper_ar...s_16MAY03.aspx
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...group-12399580
5. Sorry if you lie about who the father is is that not paternity fraud? Stealing babies from the hospital is not unknown but its not about 30% as paternity fraud is in some countries.
6. Well nothing if you have equal need and contribution. Well paid women who divorce are surprised they now have to fund their ex partner.
7. More rigour in sentencing will solve this. Gender/race appointments don't fix things, process does.
8 OK

[NotAllThere]

1. 25% of women locked up for domestic violence?
2. Assumptions of guilt when women are accused of physical abuse?
3. default custody 50% awarded to the father.?
4. Court ordered DNA tests on divorce/child support awards?
5. Prosecution for paternity fraud?
6. Division of household money based on contribution or need not gender?
7. Equality of sentencing regardless of gender?
8. Rape allegations kept private until a judge grants a disclosure order based on decent evidence?

1. Do you mean that 25% of domestic violence cases are committed by women, so we'd expect 25% to be locked up? That'd only be true if the severity of the violence showed equal distribution. Does it? I don't know.

Surely for 2, assumptions of innocense when men are accussed of physcial abuse. You know, as the law is.

3. Custody should be based on the best interest of the child, regardless of the gender of the parent.

4 seems a bit weird. Generally it's hard to fake being the mother of a child

5. Is that so men can be equal with women's "maternity fraud"?

6? What's wrong with equal access to the pool of mone? Or are you meaning in case of divorce.

7. More female judges should help this.

8. seems reasonable

But really, adopting a victim attitude is never a good look.

[SueEllen]

No it is the judiciary who is discriminating. That is an organisation not a gender.

Who are currently made up of mostly private school educated men

Seems like men like you need to get involved in campaigns to diversify the judiciary. You also need to encourage and help if possible anyone you are acquainted with/meet who could help fulfil that aim.

Why deny any issues? Equality is just that.If its not equal for any reason then fix it.

Who is denying issues?

What is being pointed out is that men who want equality can fight for it just like women and take measures in their lives, however small, to help gain it.

Yes its true and there have been multiple cases some so blatant its unreal. Have you taken a DNA test? Most men don't in what appear to be stable relationships.l I suggested was mandating one if child support is suggested.

You are implying adult men who don't insist on one, which is their legal right, before handing over their cash are victims?