Originally posted by WTFH
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Reply to: NHS satisfaction...
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Previously on "NHS satisfaction..."
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Originally posted by vetran View Post
Incredibly stupid like 2p retail is cheaper than 3.29p wholesale and is not a great deal for the NHS?
The news sources were the NHS & Hansard among others how are they biased?
Your news source:
Paracetamol made up £73.7million of the spend, being prescribed over 16million times, at about £4.50 a pack — roughly 15 times the price of a pack of paracetamol at supermarket Tesco.
You then say "at about £4.50" is the same as "about £2.50"
Not just the papers I also linked to NHS articles which said it was about £2.50.
It's what we've come to expect from you.
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Originally posted by d000hg View Post
Nope. Firstly, I said you were saying (incredibly) stupid things but didn't make a personal attack on you. You should be able to tell the difference as an adult...Silly name-calling, really?
Secondly, no matter how much you try to overcomplicate this with an ever-expanding argument it doesn't change the fact that you've said something clearly false based on a basic misunderstanding from a biased news source who were seeking to deceive. It's not going to distract anyone no matter how much you bluff and bluster. I'm not sure at this point if you actually believe what you're saying (you do seem to swallow anything in the DM as truth), or you're hoping to extricate yourself from the mess you've made with a load of verbal chaff, or you're just arguing for the sake of it... but everyone on the outside just sees you digging an ever-larger hole.
I think you probably said it best when you talked about being "wilfully ignorant". This whole argument is absurd.
The news sources were the NHS & Hansard among others how are they biased?
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Originally posted by vetran View Post
FTFY
Secondly, no matter how much you try to overcomplicate this with an ever-expanding argument it doesn't change the fact that you've said something clearly false based on a basic misunderstanding from a biased news source who were seeking to deceive. It's not going to distract anyone no matter how much you bluff and bluster. I'm not sure at this point if you actually believe what you're saying (you do seem to swallow anything in the DM as truth), or you're hoping to extricate yourself from the mess you've made with a load of verbal chaff, or you're just arguing for the sake of it... but everyone on the outside just sees you digging an ever-larger hole.
I think you probably said it best when you talked about being "wilfully ignorant". This whole argument is absurd.
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Originally posted by WTFH View Post
Nope, because you have changed your argument again.
The cost to the NHS of buying paracetamol is not 15x (DM claim) or 4x, or whatever you want to call it. You got that one completely wrong.
The cost of buying paracetamol in the NHS is at a similar level to the supermarkets. Something which you refuse to accept, because it doesn’t compute in your tiny brain.
Each time you are presented with facts you try to shift your argument.
My first response to you in this thread was to ask if you knew the difference between prescribing and buying. It’s clear you still don’t, in the same way that you would struggle to identify your elbow from your backside.
You don’t understand, and don’t want to understand, how NHS supply works, and frankly, I’m not sure I could explain it in simple enough terms that you would accept, even if you were open to it.
It’s rather sad that you’re deliberately and wilfully ignorant.
So we have established the cost of buying paracetamol by the NHS from the figures you supplied is nearly the same as buying retail in a supermarket and sometimes more. One would expect such a large organisation to get a discount especially when not in more expensive retail packaging.
I have given you links from the NHS, Hansard and a number of papers (including the wail quoting a number of sources for giggles) that state the cost is sometimes 4-5 times above retail cost.
The cost of prescribing has been set at £35 a time again direct from the NHS and echoed from Hansard.
So not only do the NHS apparently buy above retail they have a £35 arrangement fee.
I'm not willfully ignorant, you are not explaining it well enough and credible government sources suggest your strenuous and somewhat arrogant assertions are wrong. I keep checking your post name as it makes me think I am talking to Dhoogy-fashion not the WTFH we all know and respect.
do tell me what I am missing?
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Originally posted by vetran View Post
did you need some burn cream?
The cost to the NHS of buying paracetamol is not 15x (DM claim) or 4x, or whatever you want to call it. You got that one completely wrong.
The cost of buying paracetamol in the NHS is at a similar level to the supermarkets. Something which you refuse to accept, because it doesn’t compute in your tiny brain.
Each time you are presented with facts you try to shift your argument.
My first response to you in this thread was to ask if you knew the difference between prescribing and buying. It’s clear you still don’t, in the same way that you would struggle to identify your elbow from your backside.
You don’t understand, and don’t want to understand, how NHS supply works, and frankly, I’m not sure I could explain it in simple enough terms that you would accept, even if you were open to it.
It’s rather sad that you’re deliberately and wilfully ignorant.
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Originally posted by WTFH View Post
Yes I did - I even linked to it. You just didn’t like the link.
I didn’t “change the reference price”, I had picked one supplier off the NHS price list, I then gave options for 3 other suppliers. I didn’t quote the wrong price.
Something that is “unlikely” and “probably” won’t vary? Good luck with that.
The “private price list” is actually the BNF (British National Formulary) provided by NICE (National Institute for Health and Care Excellence). It contains the NHS prices. It’s not made up by me.
But “multiple papers” have told you that it doesn’t exist, and if it did, all the facts in it are wrong.
Go on, knock yourself out:
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drugs/paracetamol/
…Then take some paracetamol for your sore head.
If there is a lower price do the NHS always buy at that lower price?
So the 2.44p per unit is about the same price you can buy by the 16 (my link to 39p) in Tesco (+ Asda) and a quarter more per unit than the 2p B&M sell it at. The 3.72 is 1.86 times the B&M price.
So it is clear on current pricing if the prevailing price is 2.44p per unit to the NHS 25% more expensive than it is to buy on the high street, if its 1.34 its about a third off we are hardly getting a massive discount.
These are all 100 quantities so less expensive packaging. Though it seems it is prescribed in smaller quantities
And for the Horses other end, from the Horses mouth.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/2017/11/p...rontline-care/
- Can be purchased over the counter, and sometimes at a lower cost than that which would be incurred by the NHS – paracetamol is an average of four times as expensive when provided on prescription by the NHS, compared to when it is purchased in pharmacies or supermarkets. It can costs around £34 for 32 on prescription including dispensing and GP consultation fees.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/common...forceExpansion
We still deliver paracetamol on prescription, but it costs 30p at Boots. It costs £35 to go through all the different appointments and all the different systems to get paracetamol on prescription from the NHS, at the cost of tens of millions of pounds a year. Why do we do that? Why do we add that burden to our health system?
did you need some burn cream?
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Originally posted by vetran View Post
Well you didn't provide accurate prices for Tesco
Originally posted by vetran View PostI added B&M then you change the reference price and its me that is in the wrong when you quote your wrong price and accuse me of being wrong based on it.
Originally posted by vetran View PostMassive price variations in a very common generic drug seems unlikely. Its generic and common so manufacturing costs probably won't vary, I suspect manufacturers know how to forecast.
Originally posted by vetran View PostI don't know I am wrong, I side with multiple papers and the health minister. You seem to pick from a private price list and make it up.
But “multiple papers” have told you that it doesn’t exist, and if it did, all the facts in it are wrong.
Go on, knock yourself out:
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drugs/paracetamol/
…Then take some paracetamol for your sore head.
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Originally posted by vetran View Post
Well you didn't provide accurate prices for Tesco I added B&M then you change the reference price and its me that is in the wrong when you quote your wrong price and accuse me of being wrong based on it.
Well free market economics would cause the price from multiple suppliers to group together. Massive price variations in a very common generic drug seems unlikely. Its generic and common so manufacturing costs probably won't vary, I suspect manufacturers know how to forecast.
I don't know I am wrong, I side with multiple papers and the health minister. You seem to pick from a private price list and make it up.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ercharging-nhs
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/...nhs-a-fortune/
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Originally posted by WTFH View Post
You really are struggling here.
The NHS can buy from multiple suppliers (I believe there are around 30 for paracetamol). My first post, I picked one of the suppliers that I knew and pulled up their prices.
Other suppliers charge different prices. So, I checked some of the other suppliers and found one that was considerably less.
Why is there such a wide range? Maybe it's free market economics, maybe it's cost of manufacture, maybe it's availability, there are so many factors in supply chain pricing that you'd burn your braincells out just to scratch the surface.
You're making assumptions about the cost that B&M buy their tablets at (you way 1/2 of 2p = 1p) or Tesco (you wrongly say 1/2 of 6.5p = 1p). Why not find out?
(Also note that I provided a link to the Tesco price earlier, even if you choose to ignore it)
And you're into your classic whataboutery now, what if the NHS bought 16 tablets from the most expensive supplier, would it cost 15 times more (Daily Mail claim) than buying them from Tesco?
Well, the answer is: it's not a valid question, because the NHS pricing is based on 100s.
Funny thing is, you know you're wrong and I'm right. If you thought for a minute I did not provide accurate figures for the NHS prices, you, or one of the other Wailers, would have called me out on it.
Well free market economics would cause the price from multiple suppliers to group together. Massive price variations in a very common generic drug seems unlikely. Its generic and common so manufacturing costs probably won't vary, I suspect manufacturers know how to forecast.
I don't know I am wrong, I side with multiple papers and the health minister. You seem to pick from a private price list and make it up.
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Originally posted by vetran View Post
Try looking?
You are at risk of making Trump seem smart... please just stop.
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Originally posted by vetran View Post
No the price you found was more. Luckily Tesco supply prices online.
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-G...ucts/257107498
They are still 39p.so Tesco are less than the NHS buying in bulk at 2.75 a pill.
Oh I see you added a new value of 60p per hundred despite assuring me that is is 2.75p per pill. Why such a wide range of price?
With the figures you supplied before the NHS BUYS PARACETEMOL in 100+ quantities at about a third more per pill than you personally can buy on the high street.
One assumes B&M and Tesco are making some profit on that and buy at say half their sale price so about 1p per pill?
Now if the NHS buys Paracetamol in 16s to prescribe what price would they be? Lets try comparing apples with apples not kumquats.
The NHS can buy from multiple suppliers (I believe there are around 30 for paracetamol). My first post, I picked one of the suppliers that I knew and pulled up their prices.
Other suppliers charge different prices. So, I checked some of the other suppliers and found one that was considerably less.
Why is there such a wide range? Maybe it's free market economics, maybe it's cost of manufacture, maybe it's availability, there are so many factors in supply chain pricing that you'd burn your braincells out just to scratch the surface.
You're making assumptions about the cost that B&M buy their tablets at (you way 1/2 of 2p = 1p) or Tesco (you wrongly say 1/2 of 6.5p = 1p). Why not find out?
(Also note that I provided a link to the Tesco price earlier, even if you choose to ignore it)
And you're into your classic whataboutery now, what if the NHS bought 16 tablets from the most expensive supplier, would it cost 15 times more (Daily Mail claim) than buying them from Tesco?
Well, the answer is: it's not a valid question, because the NHS pricing is based on 100s.
Funny thing is, you know you're wrong and I'm right. If you thought for a minute I did not provide accurate figures for the NHS prices, you, or one of the other Wailers, would have called me out on it.
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