Reply to: Need urgent help. Contract termination without notice

[northernladuk]

Not quite - you need the SDS and separate confirmation from the end client that it is actually valid.

Remember - the biggest concern that JamesBrown and myself both have is that a determination may be changed well after you start work (and I'm not talking about 4 days here I'm talking nearly 4 months if it's monthly billing and 90 day terms).

Yep but still as a starter for 10, the ideal situation is to get an SDS where humanly possible. This would have avoided at least three of the posts we've got about people getting bad news down the line. If they push the agent to push the client it might appear earlier. Might not, might change and all that but still, starting with an SDS has got to be better than nothing.

[Paddy]

I refused new terms. Contract clearly mentions that it is outside IR35. If they wanted me to work inside IR35, it will be a new contract. I was happy to work continue working under current terms.

My reply in Gordon Ramsey mode. Why the f don't you read the small print! If you don't understand about contracts then f'ing spend £10 and download a f'ing book on Kindle that explains about contracts. Contract law is not as simplistic as many people think. Read and understand before signing even if the agent is sitting and waiting for you to do so. Don't be f'ing be shy for asking for T&Cs to be changed.

[eek]

No. You are in a client/supplier relationship. These things are not equal. They have the money and you work for it so it's going to be weighted in someone's favour I am afraid. Notice is to terminate the contract and, as mentioned before, they have terms in that say if you don't do work you don't get paid. In theory they should say, we've no more work for you so don't come in again and we will service notice on the contract to expire on XXX date. The notice period has been honoured but due to other clauses there is no more work. You earning money and the contract expiring are totally different things.

Thankfully many clients will honour the notice or plan exit so it can be worked. In this case there has been such a fundamental shift in the contract then the old one is dead and you don't want to work under the terms of the new one so you are done.

Horrible mess and we've had a couple of other people in exactly the same situation as you. It's going to happen a lot. You really must get an SDS from the client before you start. The days of the agent saying it's outside and all that rubbish have gone. The SDS is the one document you need so get it before you start.

Not quite - you need the SDS and separate confirmation from the end client that it is actually valid.

Remember - the biggest concern that JamesBrown and myself both have is that a determination may be changed well after you start work (and I'm not talking about 4 days here I'm talking nearly 4 months if it's monthly billing and 90 day terms).

[northernladuk]

Then what is the notice period for? Can contractors do the same thing? Leave without notice?

No. You are in a client/supplier relationship. These things are not equal. They have the money and you work for it so it's going to be weighted in someone's favour I am afraid. Notice is to terminate the contract and, as mentioned before, they have terms in that say if you don't do work you don't get paid. In theory they should say, we've no more work for you so don't come in again and we will service notice on the contract to expire on XXX date. The notice period has been honoured but due to other clauses there is no more work. You earning money and the contract expiring are totally different things.

Thankfully many clients will honour the notice or plan exit so it can be worked. In this case there has been such a fundamental shift in the contract then the old one is dead and you don't want to work under the terms of the new one so you are done.

Horrible mess and we've had a couple of other people in exactly the same situation as you. It's going to happen a lot. You really must get an SDS from the client before you start. The days of the agent saying it's outside and all that rubbish have gone. The SDS is the one document you need so get it before you start.

[eek]

Then what is the notice period for? Can contractors do the same thing? Leave without notice?

Nope - the notice period is there to allow you to leave and for agencies to provide a nicer notice period if it's practical - I had a lovely one years back where HP served notice to the agency, agency served notice on me and HP were surprised I was leaving the following Friday.

Agency had me on 1 weeks notice, HP had it as a month.

Cue a lot of panic as agency desperately tried to keep me on to finish the project due to their screw up (was a nice pay rise for the final 3 weeks work).

However the reality of any business to business contract is that I can replace you with someone else tomorrow if I have no work for you to do.

[SueEllen]

Then there’s not much more to say. The agency got you in under false pretences (that you won’t be able to prove) and the client binned you when you refused the old switcheroo.

That’s it really.

It's likely the client didn't know what the agency was up to.

[SueEllen]

I didn't refuse to work. I refused new contract.

They can't continue with the old contract with the company you are the director. So that contact is null and void. The only work available is under the new contact with you personally. You personally refused to accept the new terms so they have to now look for someone else.

[cojak]

Then what is the notice period for? Can contractors do the same thing? Leave without notice?

Yes they can. I did when a project I was on got cancelled.

[cojak]

Then there’s not much more to say. The agency got you in under false pretences (that you won’t be able to prove) and the client binned you when you refused the old switcheroo.

That’s it really.

[sammy2020]

YOU refused to work inside, so they terminated the contract.

They have terminated the contract because you have refuse to do the work. They even offered to increase your rate, but you didn't want it.

Therefore yes, they can do it.
Sure, you can take them to court, but it will be an expensive lesson for you, as the evidence you've presented here seems quite clear.

Good luck in your next gig.

There is no work available under the old terms as the situation has changed.

Hence the end of your contract....

Then what is the notice period for? Can contractors do the same thing? Leave without notice?

[sammy2020]

YOU refused to work inside, so they terminated the contract.

They have terminated the contract because you have refuse to do the work. They even offered to increase your rate, but you didn't want it.

Therefore yes, they can do it.
Sure, you can take them to court, but it will be an expensive lesson for you, as the evidence you've presented here seems quite clear.

Good luck in your next gig.

You really should have a better grasp on this. This is your job now. You are asking if they can do it but it's in the contract which you should have read and fully understood. I mean, it's in the title of what you are 'CONTRACTor'.

There are a couple of clauses that will allow them to do this. We normally point to the section that says you will get paid upon receipt of a signed timesheet for the days you worked. If you didn't work them you won't get paid for them. Period. They, and you, could refuse work in which case no timesheet so effective immediate termination.

There is also the aspect that you've refused to do the work. If that's the case then I'm sure there is some other general clause that by refusing you've broken contract and it's done. I mean, you can't have a contract for work that you are refusing to do so it's game over.

So yes, they can quite happily do this and no you don't get any notice period or pay for days you didn't work. It's there in black and white in the contract.

Actually I am wrong, it's possible for them to honour the notice period but if you don't do any work you don't get paid so still irrelevant but if you really wanted to push them on the immediate termination with no notice you could, but as you can see it doesn't change things one iota.

I didn't refuse to work. I refused new contract. Moving to inside IR35 changes lot of things. A new contract has to be agreed and my limited company won't be in it.

[eek]

I refused new terms. Contract clearly mentions that it is outside IR35. If they wanted me to work inside IR35, it will be a new contract. I was happy to work continue working under current terms.

There is no work available under the old terms as the situation has changed.

Hence the end of your contract....

[sammy2020]

YOU refused to work inside, so they terminated the contract.

They have terminated the contract because you have refuse to do the work. They even offered to increase your rate, but you didn't want it.

Therefore yes, they can do it.
Sure, you can take them to court, but it will be an expensive lesson for you, as the evidence you've presented here seems quite clear.

Good luck in your next gig.

I refused new terms. Contract clearly mentions that it is outside IR35. If they wanted me to work inside IR35, it will be a new contract. I was happy to work continue working under current terms.

[northernladuk]

You really should have a better grasp on this. This is your job now. You are asking if they can do it but it's in the contract which you should have read and fully understood. I mean, it's in the title of what you are 'CONTRACTor'.

There are a couple of clauses that will allow them to do this. We normally point to the section that says you will get paid upon receipt of a signed timesheet for the days you worked. If you didn't work them you won't get paid for them. Period. They, and you, could refuse work in which case no timesheet so effective immediate termination.

There is also the aspect that you've refused to do the work. If that's the case then I'm sure there is some other general clause that by refusing you've broken contract and it's done. I mean, you can't have a contract for work that you are refusing to do so it's game over.

So yes, they can quite happily do this and no you don't get any notice period or pay for days you didn't work. It's there in black and white in the contract.

Actually I am wrong, it's possible for them to honour the notice period but if you don't do any work you don't get paid so still irrelevant but if you really wanted to push them on the immediate termination with no notice you could, but as you can see it doesn't change things one iota.

[SueEllen]

Can they do that? Can I take them to small claims court?

Read the small print in your contract very carefully. It should be covered in your contract to allow them to do so to prevent you taking them to Court.

Should I send them invoice for 4 days or 18 days?

You only worked 4 days.