Reply to: Why hasn’t London locked down?

[Scoobos]

I think the high mortality rate of ICU admitted patients, coming out of the NHS is not aligned with other countries. The NHS are saying that 50% of those admitted to ICU dont make it out - but , worryingly that 50% of those admitted to ICU need a vent.

It's fog of war at the moment though, and none of us are counting the same way, without standards who knows.

For sure though, in Wuhan and Italy, people were saved via vents and that absolute horror EC whatever its called (the take the blood out of you and oxygenate it thingymebob).

Hopefully it'll all make more sense in a years time and we'll learn loads from it.

[Andy2]

So we're spending millions on ventilators to what end?

If people now know that those who need them are brown bread within days anyway, sounds horrible, but shouldn't the money be thrown at something else like PPE equipment and other more useful stuff. Morphine, etc?

a large dose of morphine will be better than lying face down for 2-3 weeks paralysed and used like a sock puppet

[LondonManc]

Because (a) every other country is doing it, so why aren't we?, (b) the public outry at not being seen to at least try and instead leaving people to die will probably lead to riots, (c) there are probably a few people for whom it works and therefore see (b).

My whole point was around your point (c), with reference to this link posted earlier:
Coronavirus doctor reveals he is yet to get a patient off a ventilator alive and his hospital could run out by Easter

[ladymuck]

So we're spending millions on ventilators to what end?

If people now know that those who need them are brown bread within days anyway, sounds horrible, but shouldn't the money be thrown at something else like PPE equipment and other more useful stuff. Morphine, etc?

Because (a) every other country is doing it, so why aren't we?, (b) the public outry at not being seen to at least try and instead leaving people to die will probably lead to riots, (c) there are probably a few people for whom it works and therefore see (b).

[LondonManc]

So we're spending millions on ventilators to what end?

If people now know that those who need them are brown bread within days anyway, sounds horrible, but shouldn't the money be thrown at something else like PPE equipment and other more useful stuff. Morphine, etc?

[Scoobos]

Good news today though - hospital admissions down to rising by only 8% , thats far lower than any other day to date, during the outbreak.

Deaths down considerably too.

[Old Greg]

I didn't know the beyond bit was allowed? That's euthanasia isn't it?

My aunt wanted that when she died back in 2017 and it wasn't a thing. She was comfortable though, as much as she could be. (took a selfie on her second to last day with us).

IIRC, if the does is indicated by the level of pain and the intent of the dose is to relieve pain, rather than to kill, it is allowed.

[Scoobos]

If someone is dying in pain due to a doctor worried that they'll be addicted, then the doctor isn't following good clinical practice. There is absolutely no reason not to give pain relief to terminally ill patients. Up until and beyond the lethal dose. All quite legal.

I didn't know the beyond bit was allowed? That's euthanasia isn't it?

My aunt wanted that when she died back in 2017 and it wasn't a thing. She was comfortable though, as much as she could be. (took a selfie on her second to last day with us).

[NotAllThere]

Yeah, they're dying. Getting addicted to prescription painkillers is the least of their worries.

If someone is dying in pain due to a doctor worried that they'll be addicted, then the doctor isn't following good clinical practice. There is absolutely no reason not to give pain relief to terminally ill patients. Up until and beyond the lethal dose. All quite legal.

[ladymuck]

Ah yes, the terminally ill who are denied painkillers because of addiction.

Yeah, they're dying. Getting addicted to prescription painkillers is the least of their worries.

[DoctorStrangelove]

I do dislike the "life at any cost" mentality. Palliative care is another inconsistently available and underfunded area.

Ah yes, the terminally ill who are denied painkillers because of addiction.

[Whorty]

That's what MD in Private Eye said a few weeks ago. It especially applies to older people. Those over 70 who need intubation most likely won't make it even in the best of times. He say he'd opt for morphine for a peaceful end rather than being intubated and kept sedated until he dies. It's like the modern world can't cope with the fact of death.

Life is a sexually transmitted disease and invariably fatal.

Anyone who has ever watched an episode of Chicago Med knows that you don't want to go on a ventilator/ECMO.

[ladymuck]

"Nor strive officiously to keep alive" as someone once said.

I recall a doctor of my acquaintance having to remonstrate with a younger colleague who was preparing to go to extreme measures to keep the father of said doctor alive when his quality of life would have been dreadful.

Sometimes there are worse things than a peaceful death.

I do dislike the "life at any cost" mentality. Palliative care is another inconsistently available and underfunded area.

[DoctorStrangelove]

That's what MD in Private Eye said a few weeks ago. It especially applies to older people. Those over 70 who need intubation most likely won't make it even in the best of times. He say he'd opt for morphine for a peaceful end rather than being intubated and kept sedated until he dies. It's like the modern world can't cope with the fact of death.

Life is a sexually transmitted disease and invariably fatal.

"Nor strive officiously to keep alive" as someone once said.

I recall a doctor of my acquaintance having to remonstrate with a younger colleague who was preparing to go to extreme measures to keep the father of said doctor alive when his quality of life would have been dreadful.

Sometimes there are worse things than a peaceful death.

[Scoobos]

Strange that, it's 50/50 elsewhere and I also thought that the NHS were saying 50% of ICU patients survived . (I thought ICU meant vent)

What I'm struggling to get any info on, is why are we seem to be comparatively so poor at getting people through - the mortality rate of hospital admissions is still higher, whether you argue we are only recording on admission or not. (This doesnt work anymore now either, since NHS testing has started).

I'm using this , for analysis of the stats coming out of DHSC -
UK Coronavirus/COVID-19 Figures (officially confirmed by DHSC and PHE on Twitter/GOV.UK)

I'm on the 'dont sit in a bloody park, even with social distancing - we've only been on lockdown 2 weeks you selfish muppets - whether you're in a flat or whatever - there's at least 10 weeks of this left if we do it properly; which we probably won't with an economy focused government in place.

London hasn't locked down, because we are trying to have our cake and eat it and damaging our chances of economic recovery and public health recovery; at equal rates by half arsing this. <wow, pent up aggression there!>