Reply to: The question that all Remainers should ask themselves ...

[vetran]

To be fair, almost everyone who voted (either way) was voting for selfish reasons. That's the whole point, you look at the options and decide what's best for you personally.

I tend to think defending your way of life and earning enough to support your family while working on mimnimum wage is less selfish than someone who can be a success anywhere worrying about whether he will have to do the paperwork for a work permit. YMMV.


All this skill up or die is tosh many people are just not capable of that. We are the lucky few.

[Mordac]

how likely are you to be refused a work permit? I would imagine it would be pretty much guaranteed.
I'm assuming you pay enough tax for 3-4 people at your level which makes you very attractive (You could pull FLC )

The providing of services depends how your mates in the EU behave the UK would want to provide services with as few barriers as possible.

If that is your only reason for remain its pretty selfish.

To be fair, almost everyone who voted (either way) was voting for selfish reasons. That's the whole point, you look at the options and decide what's best for you personally.

[eek]

That's a very simplistic view.

For example if you want higher wages in food production then everyone has to pay a lot more for food and even then there is no guarantees it goes down to the end of the chain.

It is the supermarkets including Lidl and Aldi who dictate how much food producers including farmers make. So while the supermarkets may pay their staff enough they aren't paying the food producers enough. The supermarkets have no qualms in making an order for say carrots one day than cancelling it just as the farmer is picking the crop. So are you surprised the farmer only pays their carrot pickers and packers minimum wage? Lots of farmers have gone out of business due to how the supermarkets treat them as they have gone bust.

Care work is just as complex as I tried to point out.

It isn't actually an EU problem it is a British government problem. Leaving the EU won't stop immigration even low wage immigration as if an industry needs workers e.g. Indian restaurant chefs they were lobby the government for it until they get it.

Food is a global market. The only crime a supermarket is committing paying low prices to farmers is paying the current global price for that product....

It's the same argument we have all the time here. Skill up or be subject to the market place and a contract rate that hasn't changed in 17 years...

[SueEllen]

and there we go you are close to understanding.

Minimum wage is the only thing stopping the wages go lower, look at documentaries where workers are forced to pay for PPE, uniform or travel time out of their minimum wage.

If you want people to wipe little old ladies bums why & how should you force them to work for minimum wage or below (with travelling time).

Because employers want to pay less. That way they can pay themselves more or export more tax free profit,

How can employers pay less? By importing cheap labour so competition increases and wages fall.

Is that fair on the workers? No but its racist to complain.

The British are too lazy to do the job. - Translation we don't want to pay enough or give them the security so they can leave benefits.

The foreigners are happy to work hard why are the British too lazy? - translation we are paying the foreigners a rock star salary compared to home, they have no access to benefits. So they are basically slaves

etc its all about paying less and screwing a few more pennies out of the poor. Do YOU really want to support that?

I know an employment agency that pays 20% more wages so they get the best staff, its a good business model and the customers reluctantly pay more for a lot less hassle. Aldi & Lidl are leading the way with the working wage its good business.

That's a very simplistic view.

For example if you want higher wages in food production then everyone has to pay a lot more for food and even then there is no guarantees it goes down to the end of the chain.

It is the supermarkets including Lidl and Aldi who dictate how much food producers including farmers make. So while the supermarkets may pay their staff enough they aren't paying the food producers enough. The supermarkets have no qualms in making an order for say carrots one day than cancelling it just as the farmer is picking the crop. So are you surprised the farmer only pays their carrot pickers and packers minimum wage? Lots of farmers have gone out of business due to how the supermarkets treat them as they have gone bust.

Care work is just as complex as I tried to point out.

It isn't actually an EU problem it is a British government problem. Leaving the EU won't stop immigration even low wage immigration as if an industry needs workers e.g. Indian restaurant chefs they were lobby the government for it until they get it.

[SueEllen]

so you agree its an artificial distortion of the market? Eventually it stabilises.

My experience is that even established foreign tradesmen charge 1/2 - 2/3rds of british tradesmen. The chap doing the work on my house was much cheaper than a brit. (he was middle of most quotes, the Brits were all at the top)

Again with the tradesmen, they are in shortage so it will be different.

That isn't my experience.

I find British and foreign tradesmen whether they are from the EU or not charge the same price.

Though the most expensive firm in my area is run by a British guy and is known to be expensive so I didn't get a quote from them.

[vetran]

Just like what agents do with us, building company owners do to them. Unfortunately new arrivals don't know that they aren't charging enough until they are told.

I use to find it funny when I worked with those from abroad as they would check that they were earning enough.

BTW the foreign tradesman I know and have used charge the same as British tradesmen simply because they live in the country with their families and have the same costs.

so you agree its an artificial distortion of the market? Eventually it stabilises.

My experience is that even established foreign tradesmen charge 1/2 - 2/3rds of british tradesmen. The chap doing the work on my house was much cheaper than a brit. (he was middle of most quotes, the Brits were all at the top)

Again with the tradesmen, they are in shortage so it will be different.

[vetran]

There are lots of reasons why some jobs will only pay minimum wage.

For example with carers local councils refuse to pay a decent wage as it would increase council tax and they would have to put it to a vote, which they would lose. So the only people who will be carers are recent immigrants whether from within or outside the EU and illegal immigrants.

In the case of shop assistants since so many people want the job why raise wages?

and there we go you are close to understanding.

Minimum wage is the only thing stopping the wages go lower, look at documentaries where workers are forced to pay for PPE, uniform or travel time out of their minimum wage.

If you want people to wipe little old ladies bums why & how should you force them to work for minimum wage or below (with travelling time).

Because employers want to pay less. That way they can pay themselves more or export more tax free profit,

How can employers pay less? By importing cheap labour so competition increases and wages fall.

Is that fair on the workers? No but its racist to complain.

The British are too lazy to do the job. - Translation we don't want to pay enough or give them the security so they can leave benefits.

The foreigners are happy to work hard why are the British too lazy? - translation we are paying the foreigners a rock star salary compared to home, they have no access to benefits. So they are basically slaves

etc its all about paying less and screwing a few more pennies out of the poor. Do YOU really want to support that?

I know an employment agency that pays 20% more wages so they get the best staff, its a good business model and the customers reluctantly pay more for a lot less hassle. Aldi & Lidl are leading the way with the working wage its good business.

[SueEllen]

But being annoyed about undercut in your own country by people Mandelslime sent a search party out for is hardly unreasonable.

Just like what agents do with us, building company owners do to them. Unfortunately new arrivals don't know that they aren't charging enough until they are told.

I use to find it funny when I worked with those from abroad as they would check that they were earning enough.

BTW the foreign tradesman I know and have used charge the same as British tradesmen simply because they live in the country with their families and have the same costs.

[SueEllen]

Possibly, but is it as selfish as those on minimum wage who have to compete?

There are lots of reasons why some jobs will only pay minimum wage.

For example with carers local councils refuse to pay a decent wage as it would increase council tax and they would have to put it to a vote, which they would lose. So the only people who will be carers are recent immigrants whether from within or outside the EU and illegal immigrants.

In the case of shop assistants since so many people want the job why raise wages?

In the case of food production - we want cheap food and so the only people willing to do the job at the price we want to pay are from countries that are accession states to the EU.

The market in many cases dictates that these jobs are minimum wage and if the minimum wage wasn't there people would be paid less as that use to happen. I remember being a teenager and working in shops. I later found that I was earning more that a security guard and carer who had families to support a few miles away as the minimum wage didn't exist then.

Tradesmen & NAT there is a shortage so getting a decent one is hard and rates rise accordingly. We as a country should have expanded the technical colleges not sent everyone to university.

This has been said for decades but getting the Westminster government to listen and getting parents to realise this is difficult. Even young people who are intelligent enough to see this and go along the path to get tradesmen skills often have to fight with their parents especially if they have a degree as well.

[vetran]

It's just as selfish as those in the building trade who voted LEAVE as they didn't want building companies to be able to employ foreign workers.

They seem unaware that it is common in London and the SE to find and be able to use tradesmen who have come from South Africa, Australia, Zimbabwe and New Zealand as well as Poland etc. In addition some building companies run by British people use illegal immigrants from India, Ukraine (they pretend they are Polish) etc.

Oh and a couple of my neighbours who are tradesman do not have a problem getting work. They are older British guys who are well-known in the local area for their skill. In fact they often get phone calls with requests to work miles away which they turn down.

NAT wants the privilege of working in a country other than his own. The UK based workers wanted to work in a market not distorted by cheap labour. Which one of those seems more selfish?

Is it as selfish as those on minimum wage who have to compete?

Tradesmen & NAT there is a shortage so getting a decent one is hard and rates rise accordingly. We as a country should have expanded the technical colleges not sent everyone to university. But being annoyed about undercut in your own country by people Mandelslime sent a search party out for is hardly unreasonable.

[SueEllen]

how likely are you to be refused a work permit? I would imagine it would be pretty much guaranteed.
I'm assuming you pay enough tax for 3-4 people at your level which makes you very attractive (You could pull FLC )

The providing of services depends how your mates in the EU behave the UK would want to provide services with as few barriers as possible.

If that is your only reason for remain its pretty selfish.

It's just as selfish as those in the building trade who voted LEAVE as they didn't want building companies to be able to employ foreign workers.

They seem unaware that it is common in London and the SE to find and be able to use tradesmen who have come from South Africa, Australia, Zimbabwe and New Zealand as well as Poland etc. In addition some building companies run by British people use illegal immigrants from India, Ukraine (they pretend they are Polish) etc.

Oh and a couple of my neighbours who are tradesman do not have a problem getting work. They are older British guys who are well-known in the local area for their skill. In fact they often get phone calls with requests to work miles away which they turn down.

[vetran]

Depends on the form of the Brexit. Will I, as a UK citizen, be able to continue to work in France or Germany without having to get a work permit? Will my company (Swiss resident) be able to continue to freely provide services to the UK?

how likely are you to be refused a work permit? I would imagine it would be pretty much guaranteed.
I'm assuming you pay enough tax for 3-4 people at your level which makes you very attractive (You could pull FLC )

The providing of services depends how your mates in the EU behave the UK would want to provide services with as few barriers as possible.

If that is your only reason for remain its pretty selfish.

[NotAllThere]

Just wait until you realise that Brexit is actually going to happen...

Depends on the form of the Brexit. Will I, as a UK citizen, be able to continue to work in France or Germany without having to get a work permit? Will my company (Swiss resident) be able to continue to freely provide services to the UK?

[cojak]

I don't think I'm angry . Seriously, I can see how it can work but I think the risks are way too high and the leave % not high enough to take the risks.

Just wait until you realise that Brexit is actually going to happen...

[SuperZ]

You need to get better at maths. The winning margin was 3.6%....

Apart from that you still seem to be in phase 1 denial mode moving towards phase 2 anger...

I'm basing the calculation off of the minimum required. At 50% nothing would have happened therefore at 51.8% I put that at a 1.8% win .

I don't think I'm angry . Seriously, I can see how it can work but I think the risks are way too high and the leave % not high enough to take the risks.