Reply to: ClientCo on the rate cut wagon at 10%

[ChimpMaster]

Reply is basically take it or leave it.

Just checking if I work notice or immediate termination.

Simple - if they aren't honouring the contract now, then why should you honour it when you choose to leave?

[Scrag Meister]

Have replied accepting the rate if they drop my notice to 1 week, or they can revert to my pre - rise rate and maintain the notice at 4 weeks.

Now we wait and see if either fly.

Reply is basically take it or leave it.

Just checking if I work notice or immediate termination.

[northernladuk]

As with most walks of life, I've found that the good ones are pretty good, but the bad ones are worse than useless - and there tend to be more bad than good.

I've found that certain offshore teams have had a tendency to deliver the bare minimum without any proactive impetus. I've also seen quite a bit of slopey shoulders / downright lies to try and get out of things, eg. yesterday we asked the team in Bangalore who was monitoring the service requests with the vendor and were told immediately "there aren't any open requests, so we don't have to monitor them". While on the call, I looked up one of the requests, and the last update (over a month ago) was from the vendor saying "I can't transfer this to the specific team as it's a new request - please close this one and raise a new one for that team". Today's call "oh yes, he has raised the SR and is managing it..."

I currently work with two different off-shore centres in different countries - the good guys are good, but there's a lot of laziness out there that I see.

+1 to all that.

[TheFaQQer]

Got to remember the offshore guys don't do a lot of the soft skills courses and personal development that employers in the UK (used to offer). It's not so much their work quality is any different but their style most certainly is. I find they tend to be good at the task in hand but that's it. I get so many mails saying we can't do this or this won't work but it is rarely followed up with 'but we could do this'. I am sure there is plenty of evidence of uk guys doing this as well but it is particularly noticeable with the offshore bods.

As with most walks of life, I've found that the good ones are pretty good, but the bad ones are worse than useless - and there tend to be more bad than good.

I've found that certain offshore teams have had a tendency to deliver the bare minimum without any proactive impetus. I've also seen quite a bit of slopey shoulders / downright lies to try and get out of things, eg. yesterday we asked the team in Bangalore who was monitoring the service requests with the vendor and were told immediately "there aren't any open requests, so we don't have to monitor them". While on the call, I looked up one of the requests, and the last update (over a month ago) was from the vendor saying "I can't transfer this to the specific team as it's a new request - please close this one and raise a new one for that team". Today's call "oh yes, he has raised the SR and is managing it..."

I currently work with two different off-shore centres in different countries - the good guys are good, but there's a lot of laziness out there that I see.

[Scrag Meister]

Have replied accepting the rate if they drop my notice to 1 week, or they can revert to my pre - rise rate and maintain the notice at 4 weeks.

Now we wait and see if either fly.

[northernladuk]

Got to remember the offshore guys don't do a lot of the soft skills courses and personal development that employers in the UK (used to offer). It's not so much their work quality is any different but their style most certainly is. I find they tend to be good at the task in hand but that's it. I get so many mails saying we can't do this or this won't work but it is rarely followed up with 'but we could do this'. I am sure there is plenty of evidence of uk guys doing this as well but it is particularly noticeable with the offshore bods.

That's just one example. There are many other little bits like that which IMO makes working with offshore teams very dull and frustrating. I've work with plenty of capable teams but just haven't met any performing teams if you get my meaning. The bare bones of the work is covered and that's it.

Lots of other reasons that low quality is delivered and that doesn't just mean the quality of the actual work delivered. A an offshore helpdesk bods for banks etc are perfectly capable but so many users find them frustrating to deal with. That is not quality.

[The Spartan]

Why do you guys (and gals) put all of the Offshoring in the same basket? Just because someone is living in a country with low living standards and is happy with lower pay, doesn't make him any less qualified / competent / experienced than the on-shore contractors.

Speaking from experience the service providers in east Europe are in the position to offer better pay for IT resources than the local businesses out there and this grants them the ability to cream the top talent



That is not always the case, often the upper management are perfectly aware of Y and as long as X>Y they are happy. And like i said above Offshoring =/= low quality

Oh I don't I've worked with some very good offshore teams but I've experienced more bad than good, things are sometimes lost in translation and then there are cultural differences that may come into play. The market is a global one so it's not just Eastern Europe for one, somehow I doubt that they are fully aware of the end cost otherwise why would you pay more?

[sal]

Why do you guys (and gals) put all of the Offshoring in the same basket? Just because someone is living in a country with low living standards and is happy with lower pay, doesn't make him any less qualified / competent / experienced than the on-shore contractors.

Speaking from experience the service providers in east Europe are in the position to offer better pay for IT resources than the local businesses out there and this grants them the ability to cream the top talent

The thing that cracks me up about offshoring is that it saves X amount upfront but costs Y in the long run which turns out to be more than X and generally the person who arranges the offshoring gets a nice bonus but fecks off before the true extent of the problem rears it's ugly head.

That is not always the case, often the upper management are perfectly aware of Y and as long as X>Y they are happy. And like i said above Offshoring =/= low quality

[The Spartan]

The city was great for contracting for many years until around 2010. Since then I've found higher rates and more work outside of London - still SE but even up to the midlands - and yes better rates even up there.

I'm sure London is still good for some skills but there is a pandemic of offshoring culture that has ruined the IT market there. And 95% of the offshore resources I have had the pleasure of working with have been of sub-par quality, but they're cheap so it's OK right?

Even the permies I know hate it because their job is mainly to manage offshore resources rather than get involved in anything interesting themselves.

I've been out of the city for some years now and though I missed the lifestyle I don't miss the cut-throat atmosphere and constant threats to my business.

The thing that cracks me up about offshoring is that it saves X amount upfront but costs Y in the long run which turns out to be more than X and generally the person who arranges the offshoring gets a nice bonus but fecks off before the true extent of the problem rears it's ugly head.

[ChimpMaster]

The city was great for contracting for many years until around 2010. Since then I've found higher rates and more work outside of London - still SE but even up to the midlands - and yes better rates even up there.

I'm sure London is still good for some skills but there is a pandemic of offshoring culture that has ruined the IT market there. And 95% of the offshore resources I have had the pleasure of working with have been of sub-par quality, but they're cheap so it's OK right?

Even the permies I know hate it because their job is mainly to manage offshore resources rather than get involved in anything interesting themselves.

I've been out of the city for some years now and though I missed the lifestyle I don't miss the cut-throat atmosphere and constant threats to my business.

[BlasterBates]

Utter rubbish - proves how sh1te PCG are.

Time after time these cuts are made and almost all except it. They are still people queueing to take jobs at the Bank I work in - and they have very few contractors. Most of the team I work in now are Indian and to fill roles they ship them over from Mumbai office. And I must say, the quality is excellent.

I am just surprised that there aren't more cuts more often.

In the company I work in which is a big internet company. In the subsiduary I work in 40% are contractors and all of them work in Romania and they're very good. The bank where I was contracting before threw most of the contractors out and replaced them with offshored resources in the Ukraine. When I spoke to a colleague at the time whilst I was still working there,she was managing a team in the Ukraine on a project doing algorithmic trading and everything was going smoothly .

I do get the impression a lot of companies are moving towards a split between permies and offshored resources. Contractors are still required but it seems to be getting less at least in Software Development.

[The Spartan]

Utter rubbish - proves how sh1te PCG are.

Time after time these cuts are made and almost all except it. They are still people queueing to take jobs at the Bank I work in - and they have very few contractors. Most of the team I work in now are Indian and to fill roles they ship them over from Mumbai office. And I must say, the quality is excellent.

I am just surprised that there aren't more cuts more often.

Aye but that isn't always the case so in that sense you're fortunate, why not look to get work outside of banking as it doesn't seem as lucrative as it used to be with all these rate cuts plus I'm sure there will be more cuts in future based on there have been a fair few recently.

[BrilloPad]

PCG warns Banks risk skills exodus with blanket rate cuts to contractors

Of course, a warning only works if there is a mass exodus rather than a mass acceptance.

Utter rubbish - proves how sh1te PCG are.

Time after time these cuts are made and almost all except it. They are still people queueing to take jobs at the Bank I work in - and they have very few contractors. Most of the team I work in now are Indian and to fill roles they ship them over from Mumbai office. And I must say, the quality is excellent.

I am just surprised that there aren't more cuts more often.

[ChimpMaster]

A. Heart says, tell them to stick it up their @r5e, and see what the outcome is.
B. Head says take it and look.

After a couple of days considering and chatting to Mrs Scrag, I have decided IANCOTBAC and will go with B.

I whole-heartedly apologise to the hardcore contractors who would have walked, if I have let you down.

Sorry can only manage 90% of a round tonight.

Just make sure you put in 10% less work! If you're at a bank in the City, that means spend 10% more time at the pub outside of your lunchtime.

[Scrag Meister]

The Decision

A. Heart says, tell them to stick it up their @r5e, and see what the outcome is.
B. Head says take it and look.

After a couple of days considering and chatting to Mrs Scrag, I have decided IANCOTBAC and will go with B.

I whole-heartedly apologise to the hardcore contractors who would have walked, if I have let you down.

Sorry can only manage 90% of a round tonight.