Training & IR35

[sociopath]

What does that have to do with it?

Companies send employees on courses to keep existing skills up to date and/or improve on existing skills. Effectively they develop their employees. As you are an employee of your own company, your company is responsible for your training and development. May seem strange your company getting paid by end client for your employee to attend a training course.

[northernladuk]

By all means keep an eye out and make sure these little things don't start to reflect a change in your working practices or your clients attitude/view towards you, but you should be doing this anyway.

^This
+1
WTCPS

[sociopath]

Eh? Mine was first. Brown noser!

And NLUK 👊

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

My view on this is...stop worrying about little things that would be trivial as far as IR35 is concerned.

These are the kind of things that are only going to add up to form a bigger picture IF your house isn't already in order as far as the big 3 IR35 pointers go. If you're satisfied that your contract and working practices put you outside IR35, your not you to get caught by such trivial matters as this.

Any investigation probably wouldn't even get that far if you've done your due diligence, and whomever you engaged to handle any enquiry (good accountant, QDOS, PCG etc.) should get it shut down before then.

By all means keep an eye out and make sure these little things don't start to reflect a change in your working practices or your clients attitude/view towards you, but you should be doing this anyway.

[TheFaQQer]

Both ClientCo and end client are happy for me to go and still bill my time and I wondered how this would sit with IR35?

JFDI.

They have offered the space on the course as a business decision so that the money isn't wasted. They have offered the course to staff and contractors, so there is no differentiation there.

Personally, I'm not sure that I would bill for the time, but if they are happy enough for you to do it... If there was an IR35 investigation, would anyone remember whether you billed for that time or not? If you are on a PWD contract, then is there any way you could do a bit of client work as well, either before or after the course?

[jmo21]

Risk versus reward.

How likely are you to get an IR35 investigation?

If you do get investigated, how likely is it that clientco mention they gave you a place on the course.

And if they do, you have the emails presumably that show that this course place was going free, and not part of any employee training plan.

I'd do it. And if they let me bill, even better.

[northernladuk]

Might not be a new skill but sounds like an improvement to an existing skill used on the contract which could be considered personal development.

What does that have to do with it?

[northernladuk]

also consider that you are not part and parcel of the end client. Its very common for company's to offer up courses to other departments when the employee booked can no longer attend. I personally agree with Cojak's advice.

Eh? Mine was first. Brown noser!

[sociopath]

also consider that you are not part and parcel of the end client. Its very common for company's to offer up courses to other departments when the employee booked can no longer attend. I personally agree with Cojak's advice.

[sociopath]

Might not be a new skill but sounds like an improvement to an existing skill used on the contract which could be considered personal development.

[Scruff]

Take the course, bill for the time and pay for the labs and the exam yourself? You have committed to the customer whilst at the same time being certified at your own expense...

[Mr.Whippy]

My question would be the bigger picture and how the client sees you. Are you seen as part and parcel of the organisation to even be asked this? Are the so complacent with you to allow you to bill while not doing work for them?

I don't work for the part of the business that booked the course. I work in an entirely different team in a different location and don't know anyone from the other team. They offered it out to my business area, all contractors, rather than see a few grand wasted. I also see it as an opportunity to "network" with the others and gain contacts for potential future work within their team.

Secondly would be what does the client want from you when you have done the training.

It's not a new skill to me, its something I'm currently contracted to provide. The course takes me to a more advanced level with that particular skill.

[cojak]

I would take the course and not bill for it (just a personal preference).

[northernladuk]

Taking the course as a stand alone issue. If they are willing to let you sit in a course that has a spare spot then go. Keep any documentation you can detailing that you are just taking a spare spot up and that you were not allocated a training spot as part of any ongoing skilling up of the workforce. IMO that should be more than enough to make it a none flag. Some free training doesn't make you an employee.
If you decide not to bill it would be an even bigger differentiation and I keep changing tact on this even while I am typing. Half of me says if client is willing to let you bill then fill your boots. Other half of me thinks you shouldn't really be charging a client for free training, you are not actually doing any work for them.....but you wouldn't go on the training if he hadn't asked so you shouldn't lose out.. Ah bollocks to it. Bill it if they really don't mind.

My question would be the bigger picture and how the client sees you. Are you seen as part and parcel of the organisation to even be asked this? Are the so complacent with you to allow you to bill while not doing work for them?Secondly would be what does the client want from you when you have done the training. If he is going to allocate you work based on the fact you have been on the course then I would certainly start worrying about your situation. The perfect situation would be that you go on it and never touch that tech again. From what you say this could be the case.

I would quite happily take the course but look at the working practices before and after going on the course.

[Mr.Whippy]

Hi,

I'm working on getting CCIE certified and ClientCo's client has offered me a spot on a course I was looking at booking myself anyway.

They have a couple of permies booked on a course next week, one of which broke his ankle and is now unable to attend. I work in an entirely different area of the business in a different infrastructure team and they have offered his spot on the course to me to save it going to waste as they can't get a refund at this late stage and literally noone else to go.

I've offered to pay for the course myself but this isn't doable as the end client have no mechanism to invoice/accept payment from MyCo.

Both ClientCo and end client are happy for me to go and still bill my time and I wondered how this would sit with IR35?

Should I not take it? do the week for free and not bill for my time? or fill my boots?

TIA