Reply to: Compliant with IR35

[Justin Control]

He will come back and answer you shortly.

Are you speaking as his agent?

[SueEllen]

Prehaps you could continue on BB's behalf?

How does he know?
Has he ever tried?
If that is the case, why does he deal through clients agents?

He will come back and answer you shortly.

Personally agents and the few clients I have accept my contract amendments. Then again they don't like arguing with a solicitor.

[Justin Control]

BB is pointing out that the agent will ignore your t&cs unless you have a niche skill.

Prehaps you could continue on BB's behalf?

How does he know?
Has he ever tried?
If that is the case, why does he deal through clients agents?

[SueEllen]

.... I thought so, but from your comment, you obviously didn't. So, at the risk of being tediously explicit, let's try again. If you deal directly with the client then you send your T's and C's to the client. If you deal with the client's agent then you send your T's and C's to the clients agent.

Just how difficult is this?

BB is pointing out that the agent will ignore your t&cs unless you have a niche skill.

[malvolio]

When \ if the new broom of IR35 v2 kicks in, expect even pcg's insurance to be heavily curtailed and less encompassing if HMRC start racking up the victories.

Rubbish. Why would they do that?

Insurer's are only ever in a market while they can turn a profit or see a return to profitability in the very short term.

Abbey have been with PCG since day one...

If HMRC's new emphassis on IR35 proves fruitful then, by commercial dictat alone, insurers will look very closely at who they will insure and the conditions attached to their policies.

Some insurers in the marketplace give an almost carte blanche agreement to cover contractors for IR35. That simply wont be sustainable if HMRC make sweeping gains \ successes in winning their investigations.

Possibly true. However half the point of PCG membership is (a) undestanding the rules correctly and (b) having enough impartial advice and guidance on tap to obey the rules, which haven't changed in the slightest. Therefore, for PCG members, the risk profile hasn't changed. ANd, as I keep saying, PCG doesn't insure anyone, it pays for its members' professional representation costs. And as an aside, I haven't heard of any PCG members being sent letters on the back of the new super improved regime; and there's 21,000 of them.

pcg wont be immune either. I mean, they've already been taken to the cleaners over 'new' IR35 when they thought they'd get major concessions.

On what basis do you make that assertion? You can't plan for a duplicitous government department acting in isolation. That war is a long way from over; along with several others...

And I note you didn't answer my question.

[Justin Control]

Isnt that obvious?

.... I thought so, but from your comment, you obviously didn't. So, at the risk of being tediously explicit, let's try again. If you deal directly with the client then you send your T's and C's to the client. If you deal with the client's agent then you send your T's and C's to the clients agent.

Just how difficult is this?

[SueEllen]

When \ if the new broom of IR35 v2 kicks in, expect even pcg's insurance to be heavily curtailed and less encompassing if HMRC start racking up the victories.

Since loads of contractors haven't heard that you can get IR35 insurance letalone of the PCG I wouldn't worry just yet.

Like you I've worked in the same offices as many contractors who put their head in the sand about this.

[BolshieBastard]

Whose insurance? The best reason for using PCG membership as cover is that there is one condition: that if you are being investigated when you join, you won't get free cover. Which is not unreasonable.

When \ if the new broom of IR35 v2 kicks in, expect even pcg's insurance to be heavily curtailed and less encompassing if HMRC start racking up the victories.

Insurer's are only ever in a market while they can turn a profit or see a return to profitability in the very short term.

If HMRC's new emphassis on IR35 proves fruitful then, by commercial dictat alone, insurers will look very closely at who they will insure and the conditions attached to their policies.

Some insurers in the marketplace give an almost carte blanche agreement to cover contractors for IR35. That simply wont be sustainable if HMRC make sweeping gains \ successes in winning their investigations.

pcg wont be immune either. I mean, they've already been taken to the cleaners over 'new' IR35 when they thought they'd get major concessions.

[malvolio]

Like you, I have insurance but, I dont for one moment think its the be all and end all. Some insurance co's stated cover of IR35 just seems to good to be true. TBH, I think most of them will find wriggle room to get out of their cover.

While I agree the advantage is you dont have to talk direct to HMRC, this is only so long as they agree to support you plus, you still have to provide responses through your accountant \ insurance provider. That in itself can be almost as stressful.

Whose insurance? The best reason for using PCG membership as cover is that there is one condition: that if you are being investigated when you join, you won't get free cover. Which is not unreasonable.

[BolshieBastard]

One of the best adverts for having the insurance of tax investigation cover.

One of the 'rules' of most of these policies is that you do not talk to HMRC on the subject. From first contact, you refer them to your 'expert'

Like you, I have insurance but, I dont for one moment think its the be all and end all. Some insurance co's stated cover of IR35 just seems to good to be true. TBH, I think most of them will find wriggle room to get out of their cover.

While I agree the advantage is you dont have to talk direct to HMRC, this is only so long as they agree to support you plus, you still have to provide responses through your accountant \ insurance provider. That in itself can be almost as stressful.

[TestMangler]

Having heard from colleagues what HMRC are like when they do conduct an IR35 enquiry, I would treat with a lot of respect.

Basically from all accounts they focus on all the negatives and ignore anything positive. That does make it stressful as you're thrown on the defensive, that's even with professional support.

One comment from a contractor who'd successfully gone through an enquiry that lasted two years was to think about emigrating. Even when they backed off their letter had words to the effect "we're keeping our eye on you and you're not out of the woods yet sonny boy".

Lets see how the new clamp down pans out.

One of the best adverts for having the insurance of tax investigation cover.

One of the 'rules' of most of these policies is that you do not talk to HMRC on the subject. From first contact, you refer them to your 'expert'

[BlasterBates]

On a slight change of tack, probably 90% of the contractors I know either put their head in the sand about anything IR35 or are virtual permiecontractors.

Having heard from colleagues what HMRC are like when they do conduct an IR35 enquiry, I would treat with a lot of respect.

Basically from all accounts they focus on all the negatives and ignore anything positive. That does make it stressful as you're thrown on the defensive, that's even with professional support.

One comment from a contractor who'd successfully gone through an enquiry that lasted two years was to think about emigrating. Even when they backed off their letter had words to the effect "we're keeping our eye on you and you're not out of the woods yet sonny boy".

Lets see how the new clamp down pans out.

[northernladuk]

Isnt that obvious? Unless you are in a niche market, most contractors have to go through an agency. The contractors contract is with the agency not the end client. Therefore the contractor cannot send their T&C's to the client.

On a slight change of tack, probably 90% of the contractors I know either put their head in the sand about anything IR35 or are virtual permiecontractors. TBH, I've been appalled at the ignorance of many of my contracting colleagues but what can you do to educate these people?

Like NLUK has said, I've had to pass up contracts because agents \ clients wont or dont know enough about IR35. They see it as the contractor being 'awkward.'

I can't give enough +1's out today lol.... Not one of the clients I have worked with in the last 6 years would have taken anyone direct due to PSL options. They just won't put you on the PSL for a one man band.

I would also go with the 90% figure BB mentions and I believe it will get worse...

Just as an example that makes me glum I found this 10 mins ago at the bottom of a contract role on JS...

On offer is the opportunity to work for a UK top 10 IT Consultancy and Service provider. The role comes with a competitive salary, the opportunity for further development and the potential for a wide and diverse career within Steria

It is a 6 month gig titled 'contract'. It reads like buzz word bingo for inside IR35. <sigh>

[BolshieBastard]

Why are contractors so passive about this?

Once you've had an interview with the client, whether directly or through their agents, you should be sending them a copy of your T's & C's.

How can you present yourself as a legitimate supplier of professional services without these?

Isnt that obvious? Unless you are in a niche market, most contractors have to go through an agency. The contractors contract is with the agency not the end client. Therefore the contractor cannot send their T&C's to the client.

On a slight change of tack, probably 90% of the contractors I know either put their head in the sand about anything IR35 or are virtual permiecontractors. TBH, I've been appalled at the ignorance of many of my contracting colleagues but what can you do to educate these people?

Like NLUK has said, I've had to pass up contracts because agents \ clients wont or dont know enough about IR35. They see it as the contractor being 'awkward.'

[Rabotnik]

That is a worrying point.

If more and more people are becoming 'permtractors' then actual contractors are going to have their position massively weakened when they demand the relevant business terms be enforced as there will be a dozen permtractors who will simply do what they are told.

This is a concern of mine. Almost everyone I have spoken to since starting contracting last year (both contractors and permie friends) think IR35 is nothing to worry about and contracting is just all about making more money for doing the same job as a permie. Even agents don't have a clue about it even though they deal with contractors all the time.

...assuming that you are dealing through the clients agent.

I've noticed many of my friends are now only dealing directly with clients. A lot of these guys are very talented, and if their approach becomes widespread, it will have interesting implications for the quality of contractors that agents will be able to present to clients in the future.


One of the great advantages of having your own T's and C's is that contracts can be written in terms of deliverables rather than in time frames. Most of my contracts have a schedule of deliverables with staged payments on completion. This pretty much eliminates most IR35 issues.

Do you mine me asking how you get your T's & C's added? Did you write them up yourself? When you get a contract from an agency do you just reply back saying you have added your own T's & C's as an extra page at the end?