Reply to: Contractor Collective

[cojak]

I was thinking of The PCG for networking, although I think they do CV vetting as well.

[Freamon]

I think such a thing could possibly work as a centre of excellence if it were focused around a specific subject area, but "contracting" is too general a term. If you formed a co-operative guild of professionals aimed at delivering excellent client service in the field of IT within the healthcare sector, or in the field of data centre transition projects, or something specific like that, it might work.

[BlasterBates]

Is this group really going to be a centre of excellence or just a bunch of contractors telling everyone they're a centre of excellence.

How do you actually prove you're better?

Can't see this working.

[d000hg]

Home | PCG

PCG will let anyone join, so how does it become a mark of excellence to be a member?

[jmo21]

Yesterday, I passed on two very good opportunities to people I know because I'm in a decent contract with lots of time to go. If I'd been close to contract renewal or looking then I'd have hidden those roles away and pretended they didn't exist, even if asked directly.

This is pretty much the approach I take.

[craig1]

Sounds to me like you will never actually use substitution, so you just lost an IR35 leg. If you are comfortable in a contract, you would not bid for another one, because you would perfer to keep your 100% that you are currently getting, and give the rest away, rather than bit for more, and get 10% using subcontractors?

Seriously?

Reptuation IS everything, but, serious businesses manage to use sub contractors every day. It just seems to me that you are simply a hidden employee, and have no idea about real business at all.

Can you tell me any major consultancy company that does not use associates or business partners to deliver on their promises?

I don't worry about IR35 in the slightest. In the way out, remote chance of an IR35 boogey man audit (even more unlikely considering I'm in a LLP so no PAYE system in place) my working practices set me so far outside IR35 that external substitution is highly unlikely to be an issue. Also, as a LLP, I ensure that I always have substitution rights for another Partner in the firm even though that's just legal pedantry that'll never be exercised in real life.

I don't use external subcontractors for a very good reason, I don't need to. The vast majority of my work as a consultant is as 3rd party PM managing the interface and delivery between supplier and client. I know plenty, and by plenty I mean into the triple figures, of successful consultants who work as sole practitioners and none of us are disguised employees in any way. Just because we don't slavishly follow the advice of IR35 doom-mongers around every tiny bit of "proving" we're independent businesses doesn't make us disguised employees. I really don't want the hassle of subbies on a job with all the liability and performance issues around that area, I'll leave that to the agencies or the client.

A typical bit of work (both consultancy and contract) sees me engaged by a client to provide expert knowledge to a one-off situation they have where they have no internal knowledge and will have no further need of that expert knowledge once the work finishes. It would be idiotic of them to consider an employee relationship (hidden or otherwise) and only the most idiotically pedantic of external reviewers would see it as anything other than a B2B relationship. For example, a very recent bit of work was to advise on insourcing a previously outsourced PMO, once the work was done they would never need that specific knowledge or skill-set again.

On being a "business" versus "disguised employee", I typically have six to eight direct clients in a year, one or two as contracts, the rest as consultancy pieces of work. I'd be a pretty damn poor "employee" if I went through eight employers in a year!

[cojak]

Berating people for not buying into your vision is not a great way to start Jason.

Knowing people who have started this kind of thing, it takes a LOT of time, effort and, dare I say it, money to bring this kind of thing into fruition. And people with a shared vision will be prepared to put the work in.

But expecting strangers to share that vision is a bit much.

You will probably get someone you know to come in with you though so good luck.

[Jason]

Blimey Jason! - a real person prepared to put their name on what they say, already I like you. I think your ideas are from the heart and not the head. I and most contractors I know will not pass on opportunities unless feeling secure themselves i.e. in long term contracts. I have a couple of mates I look out for and vice-versa but wouldn't vouch for anyone else or put at risk a relationship with a client by recommending they take someone who turns out to be a dud. Peer review would be a minefield too - the stuff I am into would take days and days of someone's time on a regular basis and not generate any income. Choosing a coat of arms for the Worshipful Company of Contractors could be fun though - how about a pile of coins and some old rope?

Let me put it another way.

Who would you trust more. A contractor recommending someone else for a position not related to yours, or an agent? Not imagine you are a client, who would you trust more? I know from experience, direct recommendations come before pimps.

[Jason]

Blimey Jason! - a real person prepared to put their name on what they say, already I like you. I think your ideas are from the heart and not the head. I and most contractors I know will not pass on opportunities unless feeling secure themselves i.e. in long term contracts. I have a couple of mates I look out for and vice-versa but wouldn't vouch for anyone else or put at risk a relationship with a client by recommending they take someone who turns out to be a dud. Peer review would be a minefield too - the stuff I am into would take days and days of someone's time on a regular basis and not generate any income. Choosing a coat of arms for the Worshipful Company of Contractors could be fun though - how about a pile of coins and some old rope?

I already mentioned passing on information does not mean in your area. If you are an oracle guy for instance, passing on information about a WebSphere opportunity does not really introduce any competition to you.

As to the coat of arms, I like that idea, but how about putting a goat in there, to represent the contractors, for obvious reasons.

[Jason]

I'm a fully competitive business for about half my work, the other half is the easier life of contracting! Consultancy is cut-throat nastiness where contacts are jealously guarded and rarely passed on, even if I'm 100% allocated as I may be passing on future work for when I am available.

Sounds to me like you will never actually use substitution, so you just lost an IR35 leg. If you are comfortable in a contract, you would not bid for another one, because you would perfer to keep your 100% that you are currently getting, and give the rest away, rather than bit for more, and get 10% using subcontractors?

Seriously?

Reptuation IS everything, but, serious businesses manage to use sub contractors every day. It just seems to me that you are simply a hidden employee, and have no idea about real business at all.

Can you tell me any major consultancy company that does not use associates or business partners to deliver on their promises?

[singhr]

Blimey Jason! - a real person prepared to put their name on what they say, already I like you. I think your ideas are from the heart and not the head. I and most contractors I know will not pass on opportunities unless feeling secure themselves i.e. in long term contracts. I have a couple of mates I look out for and vice-versa but wouldn't vouch for anyone else or put at risk a relationship with a client by recommending they take someone who turns out to be a dud. Peer review would be a minefield too - the stuff I am into would take days and days of someone's time on a regular basis and not generate any income. Choosing a coat of arms for the Worshipful Company of Contractors could be fun though - how about a pile of coins and some old rope?

[craig1]

Tell me, are you guys, hidden employees or are you businesses?

The attitude I have heard so far is the hidden employee attitude. I am not asking anyone to help a competitor, I am asking people to help themselves as a group.

I'm a fully competitive business for about half my work, the other half is the easier life of contracting! Consultancy is cut-throat nastiness where contacts are jealously guarded and rarely passed on, even if I'm 100% allocated as I may be passing on future work for when I am available.

For example: If I'm fully utilised and I get a contract request come in then I'll happily pass it on as I rarely have loyalty to a specific client. If I pass on a request and it gets someone a gig then I get a little introductory bonus, if I pass it on and they don't get the gig then the agency will most likely forget I existed unless they're on my very short trusted agent list. There are very few downsides to passing on a contract role to a network contact.

If I'm fully utilised and I get a consultancy request come in, my first reaction is to reschedule them for a time I can meet or to do some remote consultancy in down time to tide them over until I'm free. Only if the consultancy request is for something that is outside my scope of work will I look to pass on the work to someone else.

There are two main reasons for this:
1. It's a right bugger getting a good client. I don't want to pass on work to someone else to see them take that client as their own. As any leech/consultant will tell you, a bum on a seat means a far greater chance of rolling onto other work and keeping the client. Out of sight usually means out of mind.
2. If I recommend someone directly to a client then I'm putting my reputation on the line. If they talk a good talk but then deliver dross then my reputation gets tarnished by association. My consulting practice lives by its reputation, I won't endanger that to help someone else who is only a "contact".

On industry groups, I have my FSB membership for my small-business needs for consultancy and I have PCG for my contracting needs. That'll do me for 90% of my external needs, the other 10% I'll do myself or get advice from a trusted friend.

[Jason]

Yesterday, I passed on two very good opportunities to people I know because I'm in a decent contract with lots of time to go. If I'd been close to contract renewal or looking then I'd have hidden those roles away and pretended they didn't exist, even if asked directly.

Nice to see that you do network and do pass on opportunities to people you trust. However, you are forgetting that many contracts you may find out about, may not relate to what you do yourself. I have in the past had to say, "Sorry I don't know anyone who does that.", when asked for people to fill specific requirements.

You are also forgetting that what goes around comes around. The more contacts you make, the more likely you can find a new contract without a pimp being involved.

So, step one. Make some proper contacts, not just aliases seen on a board. There are many "networking" groups and such, that other small businesses in the North West buy into. Tell me, are you guys, hidden employees or are you businesses?

The attitude I have heard so far is the hidden employee attitude. I am not asking anyone to help a competitor, I am asking people to help themselves as a group.

[monobrow]

I am thinking old world guilds.

Do you dress up as a wizard and play World of Warcraft in your spare time by any chance?

[thunderlizard]

The problem you'll have is that contractors will behave like two strange cats stuck in a small room if there's the slightest hint that a competitor may find out about a role they're after.
...
Yesterday, I passed on two very good opportunities to people I know because I'm in a decent contract with lots of time to go. If I'd been close to contract renewal or looking then I'd have hidden those roles away and pretended they didn't exist, even if asked directly.

But that just means you're only in "cats stuck in a small room" mode when you're facing the bench. You probably spend less than 25% of your time in that situation and over 75% in the "passing on opportunities" mode.
I think it is a good idea, just not one that will succeed on the strength of the idea alone. It will take lots of publicising and reputation-bilding to establish a critical mass.