Reply to: IB - Permie or Contracting

[moorfield]

£475 a day dumps on 75K a year from a high height.

I wouldn't touch an IB with yours for either £475 or £75k.

[swamp]

£475 a day dumps on 75K a year from a high height. And I dare say you could get that 475 up to a 550 day rate fairly swiftly in an IB.

I would only ever take a 75K role in an IB in order to go contracting later. If you have a way in without doing a stint as a permie, then go for it!

[moorfield]

Hi all,

managed to secure a permie in IB (75K VP role) also, im in a final round for a contracting role pays £475/day in IB (likely i will get it)...So, im in a dilemma to pick one... going thru all sort of pros & cons of both...

any comments will be much appreciated!..

Ofcourse, i know it depends on individual circumstances when it comes to make up the mind...

Thanks

Ok.. well I took the permie shilling in October, after 3 months benched (half of this by choice en vacances), for the following reasons.

1. Continuity of experience/no gaps on the CV.
I work in a pretty niche area anyway, this was an opp to skill up and do some stuff I've not covered in my area, permiedom was the only option on offer for this one. The next contract gig can wait for a year or so until we're through all the doom, by which time I can justify asking top rates (>£750/day).

2. Continuity of cashflow.
I could have sat on the bench living comfortably off divis for a while, but I start getting twitchy when I can't see where at least the next 12 months cashflow is coming from...

3. Easy commute + time to myself.
Direct commute into London, no pfaffing on the tube, after an 18 month stint commuting out to NL. In the office just after 9, out just before 6 on an average day. Plenty of time to myself to start planning my exit out of IB work.

4. Being an IB permie is really not that much different to being a "bum on seat" contractor on a day-to-day basis. Same cr4p, different kind of T&Cs.
I've generally done 18month-2year stints in IB contracts.
It doesn't feel much different where I am now.
I'm not (and never intend to be) senior management anyway.
I have the occasional permie chores to do - reviews, appraisals etc. but this is all pretty easy stuff to bat away.
A pleasant perk is having all my holidays booked out and approved already for the next year and aligned to all the school half terms/holdidays - first time I've managed that.

5. I've seen an awful lot of visa-bob type hiring going on from the other side which worries me. Having just read through the state of the market thread I feel this was the right call for me at this time. I don't doubt I will be back contracting again within the next 18 months or so, but I'll stick around at least until the end of the next bonus cycle.


HTH.

[nomadd]

nomadd

Seeing as I've gone IB permie - Ill try and post my 2p worth on this tonight.
Unfortunately can't really post much during the day these days.

No probs, mate. I'd be interested to hear how it's gone for you. All I can go off is the constant moaning from the permies I've had to work with at my last 3 clients, all Banks (2 of which were IBs). And now I've got two permie managers sat either side of me, and they moan just as much; they tell me the "management meetings" these days are nothing but everyone moaning about the Governments bonus restrictions and what it means for them.

Maybe you've found a way around all this stuff? I'd be interested to hear. A huge Golden "Hello" and a guaranteed Golden "Goodbye" would be enough for me; especially if the gap between the two was under a year.

Cheers.

[eek]

nomadd

Seeing as I've gone IB permie - Ill try and post my 2p worth on this tonight.
Unfortunately being an IB permie I can't really post much during the day these days.

FTFY but I think the answer is stay contract.

[moorfield]

nomadd

Seeing as I've gone IB permie - Ill try and post my 2p worth on this tonight.
Unfortunately can't really post much during the day these days.

[nomadd]

I'd go for the £475 contract all the way, but that's because I'm not too concerned about the career aspect just yet and I also don't take off too much time. During the first 3 years of my contract life I only took off 4 or 5 days each year.

The advantage of contracting, at least financially, is that you will earn the money gross, i.e. before tax, holiday, pension, sick pay etc. You are then free to arrange your affairs to suit you, within the law of course. So take 2 days' holiday a year, or 50, it's up to you.

Assuming of course that you are able to win contracts for most of the year.

In a permie role, you are given a "package" which means that the employer has forced upon you a defined set of benefits that you cannot change.

I also couldn't imagine working in a permie role for £65k, i.e. being tied to one employer for that amount.

Correct.

Especially once he realises that the "bonus" is likely to be peanuts for the extra hours he's asked to work. And if he's lucky enough to get a bonus that would bring him anywhere near what a contractor on a decent rate in an IB would earn, he'd then get hammered for tax at source: 40% then up to 50%. Oh, and then there is the 3 year rule on bonuses; jumping ship to improve his "lot" in life may cost him 3 years worth of bonuses... Unless he can get the new Bank - and it would have to be another Bank, or he's screwed - to "buy out" his old bonuses. That's very unlikely for an I.T. bod.

Went through all the above with the IT Director here when I was offered permie. We both decided I was financially far, far better off - both short-term and long-term - staying contract. Hence why I still am (and just about to renew yet again. )

[2BIT]

I'd go for the £475 contract all the way, but that's because I'm not too concerned about the career aspect just yet and I also don't take off too much time. During the first 3 years of my contract life I only took off 4 or 5 days each year.

The advantage of contracting, at least financially, is that you will earn the money gross, i.e. before tax, holiday, pension, sick pay etc. You are then free to arrange your affairs to suit you, within the law of course. So take 2 days' holiday a year, or 50, it's up to you.

Assuming of course that you are able to win contracts for most of the year.

In a permie role, you are given a "package" which means that the employer has forced upon you a defined set of benefits that you cannot change.

I also couldn't imagine working in a permie role for £65k, i.e. being tied to one employer for that amount.

yeah me too, in fact just being a permie holds no attraction - unless the salary was stupidly high which is not likely in IT

[ChimpMaster]

cheers, its just that I had compared take home on 65k for a perm role offered to what I take home as contractor and I was taking home much more as a contractor (not that I would have taken the permie role anyway - for all the reasons mentioned above)

I'd go for the £475 contract all the way, but that's because I'm not too concerned about the career aspect just yet and I also don't take off too much time. During the first 3 years of my contract life I only took off 4 or 5 days each year.

The advantage of contracting, at least financially, is that you will earn the money gross, i.e. before tax, holiday, pension, sick pay etc. You are then free to arrange your affairs to suit you, within the law of course. So take 2 days' holiday a year, or 50, it's up to you.

Assuming of course that you are able to win contracts for most of the year.

In a permie role, you are given a "package" which means that the employer has forced upon you a defined set of benefits that you cannot change.

I also couldn't imagine working in a permie role for £65k, i.e. being tied to one employer for that amount.

[2BIT]

cheers, its just that I had compared take home on 65k for a perm role offered to what I take home as contractor and I was taking home much more as a contractor (not that I would have taken the permie role anyway - for all the reasons mentioned above)

Yes it is more than that, substantially more, provided you have no travel expenses.

If you do 220 days on 475 a day and look in your bank account at the end of the year you will have substantially more cash in your account than on a salary of 63K.

Of course if you're sick, pay for training and live in hotels and fund an expensive home office, and spend 10% of your time with sales and marketing then the conversion is about right.

A standard conversion is not a good idea, just calculate how much you will have in the year, and compare that to take home pay. You know

475 * 220 is about 100 grand then you pay the accountant and that's it.

what's left after tax goes into your account, and that's what matters, a conversion that applies to any self employed bod is way to generalised to be of use.

[BlasterBates]

Yes it is more than that, substantially more, provided you have no travel expenses.

If you do 220 days on 475 a day and look in your bank account at the end of the year you will have substantially more cash in your account than on a salary of 63K.

Of course if you're sick, pay for training and live in hotels and fund an expensive home office, and spend 10% of your time with sales and marketing then the conversion is about right.

A standard conversion is not a good idea, just calculate how much you will have in the year, and compare that to take home pay. You know

475 * 220 is about 100 grand then you pay the accountant and that's it.

what's left after tax goes into your account, and that's what matters, a conversion that applies to any self employed bod is way to generalised to be of use.

[2BIT]

Your call, of course, but the net take home from a £475 a day contract is very roughly equivalent to £63k gross salary as a permie by the time you factor in stuff like holidays, employers NICs, sick pay and so on.

hmmm I thought it would have been more than that - is there a good online calc which gives a good conversion? I've used a few but get wildly different results - be good to know if there is a simple way to calc it

[d000hg]

£75k isn't peanuts. £75k + ANY bonus is more bonus than you get as a contractor, especially if you view a bonus AS a bonus, not part of your salary.

[nomadd]

Hi all,

managed to secure a permie in IB (75K VP role) also, im in a final round for a contracting role pays £475/day in IB (likely i will get it)...So, im in a dilemma to pick one... going thru all sort of pros & cons of both...

any comments will be much appreciated!..

Ofcourse, i know it depends on individual circumstances when it comes to make up the mind...

Thanks

£475 is a low rate for IB on contract.

Was offered permie "VP" role at my current client last year. Turned it down flat. I can make a lot more money contracting - and without the insane stress and the crazy hours the permies do - for free (I do zero overtime, as they don't pay for it.)

A quick flick through the IT email system here shows nearly half the UK/US staff are "VP"s. Absolute bollocks of a name tag brought over by the Americans a few years ago, when "Executive" lost it's charm.

Stay contract. Skill up. Get paid more.

Oh, and if you'd just watched the miserable set of faces coming out of the permie "bonus" meetings I've seen over the last few weeks, you'd never consider permie.

Still, if you fancy being worked like a dog for peanuts, it's your choice.

[BlasterBates]

The other thiing is, if the permie role is in an American bank, forget your social life.

There are two types of banks.

There are the Goldman Sachs high pressure banks and there are the more hum drum "lets not overdo it" types of banks.

Basically if the bank is a high street bank as well, it'll have a culture of a typical high street bank, go home at 5 pm, if it's Goldman Sachs going home before 10 pm will be frowned on.