Reply to: Contract hours

[northernladuk]

So you need to establish if this is a real client requirement or an unimaginative/lazy pimp. Assume you have had an interview? If so, give the client a quick ring and discuss what he actually needs. Once agreed go back to the pimp and tell him what to put into the contract.

simples ...

I don't think boo.boo will get your reply...

boo.boo boo.boo is offline
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[northernladuk]

Slightly off topic as apologies,

..and in a different decade...

I'm looking to contract from June this year as a Wintel Engineer/Admin - I've been searching around the forums with regards to IR35 and BAU.. a lot of the contracts I'm looking at are purely BAU work with no specific project/deliverables..

Is it just a case of this being in IR35? or is there steps I can take with regards to the contract and wording to push this outside IR35?

TY

Can't have searched very well, this is a very basic question and there is a ton of stuff in the links to the right and the forums to enable you to understand legislation to a point you can answer this yourself.

.. or is this just a nice bit of trolling?

[kevpuk]

Wow - thread revival........nearly 6yrs!!!!!!

<snip> or is there steps I can take with regards to the contract and wording to push this outside IR35?<snip>

Doesn't really work like this, I am afraid - even if you can get the contract nicely worded, it is the actual working practice(s) that will ultimately decide IR35 status etc.

[rapid]

Avoid specific hours at all costs, they're a pain in the backside & look very much like an employee to Hector.

Make sure the agent & client are both clear that you are a business & therefore within reasonable negotiation you will be providing your services at time intervals which may vary. Obviously if you start getting stupid like wanting to work when the office is shut you'll get shot down, but there's no reason why you cant pick your own hours on a daily basis.

Project work - easy enough
BAU Work - I usually say I will attempt to attend site when required but for most BAU (I am Senior Wintel) I will be supporting the client remotely.

Usually a quick chat with the client about IR35 gets them motivated enough to tell the agency whats at stake

Slightly off topic as apologies, I'm looking to contract from June this year as a Wintel Engineer/Admin - I've been searching around the forums with regards to IR35 and BAU.. a lot of the contracts I'm looking at are purely BAU work with no specific project/deliverables..

Is it just a case of this being in IR35? or is there steps I can take with regards to the contract and wording to push this outside IR35?

TY

[boo.boo]

I agree, surely it's a balance between D&C and giving the client what they want.

[Epiphone]

Don't let the tail wag the dog. If the client needs you there at specific hours then that's what your business needs to supply. You're being a good business owner by adapting to your clients needs.

[malvolio]

AIUI, specified hours of work are IR35 neutral, as long as those hours are necessary for you to perform the task - the test is, do they apply equally to permies and contractors alike? So if you are on a Helpdesk, for example, it's immaterial in IR35 terms that you have to be there when the users are. If, though, you are writing application code, it indicates an unhealthy amount of D&C.

As always, there are no absolute rules, it depends on the nature of the engagement.

[PM-Junkie]

Get a legal opinion from suitably experienced lawyers whether the contract as a whole is fail, and if so, what points it fails on, rather than focus on one point that may or may not be significant.

WHS

It does get awfully complicated. I did a gig where I was providing interim cover for the program manager for 3 months while the client found a permanent replacement for the chap who had left suddenly. Because of the nature of the service my company was providing, I was asked to cover for standard working hours (9-5). In the event I actually did about 8-7 (don't we always?)...but because of the nature of the service under the terms of the contract, I was still outside IR35.

So it all depends on the service and the wording of the contract. All very complicated...best to consult the experts I think.

[NotAllThere]

Get a legal opinion from suitably experienced lawyers whether the contract as a whole is fail, and if so, what points it fails on, rather than focus on one point that may or may not be significant.

[original PM]

From my point of view I am not fussed about the time ( as in if I am needed at those hours then fine ) but I dont want it "written" into the contract as it seems as an employed scenario. I'd much rather "agree verbally" with client that the hours they require I shall work( even if it means 9-5 for example ) but the contract itself have something other than hours.

I cant seem to get that into the agencies head

Highly unlikely - if it is not written into the contract then you could refuse to do it regardless of any verbal agreements.

In addition the agency would not want this becuase it may mean you would work less hours and therefore they would make less money.

The reason I asked what it was you did was becuase then it would enable me to understand the scenario better - and hopefully advise you further.

[skelm]

Avoid specific hours at all costs, they're a pain in the backside & look very much like an employee to Hector.

Make sure the agent & client are both clear that you are a business & therefore within reasonable negotiation you will be providing your services at time intervals which may vary. Obviously if you start getting stupid like wanting to work when the office is shut you'll get shot down, but there's no reason why you cant pick your own hours on a daily basis.

Project work - easy enough
BAU Work - I usually say I will attempt to attend site when required but for most BAU (I am Senior Wintel) I will be supporting the client remotely.

Usually a quick chat with the client about IR35 gets them motivated enough to tell the agency whats at stake

From my point of view I am not fussed about the time ( as in if I am needed at those hours then fine ) but I dont want it "written" into the contract as it seems as an employed scenario. I'd much rather "agree verbally" with client that the hours they require I shall work( even if it means 9-5 for example ) but the contract itself have something other than hours.

I cant seem to get that into the agencies head!

[TheVoice]

Avoid specific hours at all costs, they're a pain in the backside & look very much like an employee to Hector.

Make sure the agent & client are both clear that you are a business & therefore within reasonable negotiation you will be providing your services at time intervals which may vary. Obviously if you start getting stupid like wanting to work when the office is shut you'll get shot down, but there's no reason why you cant pick your own hours on a daily basis.

Project work - easy enough
BAU Work - I usually say I will attempt to attend site when required but for most BAU (I am Senior Wintel) I will be supporting the client remotely.

Usually a quick chat with the client about IR35 gets them motivated enough to tell the agency whats at stake

[skelm]

probably because end client needs a resource - they will have some specific items for you to do but also need some support with BAU stuff to take the pressure off their permies.

what is it you do anyway?

Does not help my cause though

Seems to happen quite often.

[original PM]

probably because end client needs a resource - they will have some specific items for you to do but also need some support with BAU stuff to take the pressure off their permies.

what is it you do anyway?

[skelm]

AFAIK it's much better to have milestones and deliverable dates rather that hours/weeks. i.e. so XXXX must be delivered by YYYY rather than you must work ZZ hours per day.

Thought as much ..... problem I have is the numptie agencies don't seem to grasp this and everytime I tell them to insert deliverables rather than fixed timings they either don't understand what I am talking about or they of course don't know what end client wants ( as deliverables ).

The other issue being if its BAU work rather than Project work they get even more confused.