Reply to: Cost of living and day rate

[dsc]

When I was looking at perm positions a while back I remember some companies being uber proud to offer wfh 3 days a week, with the other 2 in the office of course. Works great if you live 6hrs away from the office

[TheDude]

There does seem to be an almost fundamentalist view about not going to a client's office anymore from some. I do wonder what other industries never meet face to face with their clients from time to time.

I am required to be in the office for two days a week yet have had only one face to face meeting since I started in September - everything else is either on Skype or in Teams.


The guy who signs my timesheets told me when he speaks to recruiters their feedback is that the first thing techies want to know about a role is the hybrid working model - the day rate is the next topic of conversation.

[northernladuk]

the rates have climbed in my field with higher ones much more common and much easier to get nowadays. or maybe its me being more experienced and worth more? cant tell

Self delusion and habitual lying are more likely the reason.

[GitMaster69]

the rates have climbed in my field with higher ones much more common and much easier to get nowadays. or maybe its me being more experienced and worth more? cant tell

[SussexSeagull]

There does seem to be an almost fundamentalist view about not going to a client's office anymore from some. I do wonder what other industries never meet face to face with their clients from time to time.

[Snooky]

get warm and endless coffee for free

I prefer hot coffee, but whatever floats your boat

[TheGreenBastard]

So the script is an exact template of permie employment, but has nothing at all to do with IR35 or acting like a permie, just pure coincidence you wouldn't be able to be picked out of a line-up if someone was asked "who's the outside IR35 contractor".

[northernladuk]

Sounds like someone's bought into the client's script

Your office is your home - you're visiting a customer. Arbitrary days at their behest - for permies.

Surely as a service business it is our job to buy in to the clients script? They have the requirement so is that not a script? Going in to a clients office to work is not kowtowing to the client or acting as a permie. The project I am on has plenty of suppliers regularly in the office in the same days. It's key to the delivery of a complex project. The point of contention is what the scope of this 'script' is. Is the problem over insistance from the client to eyeball people for no reason or an unreasonable request from a contractor to never visit clients regarldess of the reason. Very situation dependant for sure.

Personally I work in Service Delivery so my role is speaking to people and organising groups which I find can be done much better face to face. I get someone delivering code from a spec doesn't need it. I get a lot of value from listening to conversations and coffee machine chats.

So obviously a complex issue depending on work and role also frustrated by unreasonable requests from clients and contractors digging their heals in with clients.

No right or wrong answer but one thing I'm absolutely sure of is attending clients sites for reasonable requests, even if it's three days a week is sod all to do with IR35 or acting like a perm.

It's funny how this has become such an emotive topic though. I've been on clients sites quite happily for nearly 15 years. This last 12 months is a bloody god send. I get to work from home for a majority of time with just occassional travel if required. I'd have killed for this in the last decade and now it's here we are still divided about it

[PerfectStorm]

I'm at client office Wednesdays and occassionaly Tues and Thurs and I love it. Have a much more productive day, get to meet people, get warm and endless coffee for free. I'd rather do a gig three days or less in the office than fully remote personally. Humans are a social group so I think WFH for extended periods truely only really works for a small number of people and certain types of work.

Sounds like someone's bought into the client's script

Your office is your home - you're visiting a customer. Arbitrary days at their behest - for permies.

[TheGreenBastard]

I'm at client office Wednesdays and occassionaly Tues and Thurs and I love it. Have a much more productive day, get to meet people, get warm and endless coffee for free. I'd rather do a gig three days or less in the office than fully remote personally. Humans are a social group so I think WFH for extended periods truely only really works for a small number of people and certain types of work.

Purely individual. Personally I don't seek that from engagements, I have friends of my choosing and family to be a social butterfly with. **** office attendance.

[TheGreenBastard]

You certainly do. I don't think anyone is denying that. You get in to bed and then negotiate everything as you do have some position power for sure. I think the point we were discussing was using IR35 as a sledgehammer to make the client bow to demands that were never in their expectations. Taking a gig that has clear expecations and may even be contractually documented to be hybrid in the office and then saying you aren't doing it and don't have to because of IR35 is just poor form. It may be possible and there are much better ways of doing it.

You've got to expect the worst though as clients won't be happy. You're clearly taking the piss in that example. I've seen first hand contractors with long commutes join and within 2 weeks telling a client they want WFH. No question they took the gig clearly expecting to change it later. I've seen three outcomes, client folding to them which pissed off everyone else there and the client was less than impressed, the client said no and the contractor left soon after and the client saying no and the contactor gets terminated soon after. That was the old world when it was full time office though. Will be pretty different now so interesting to see how it pans out over time.

Fair enough, in the context of the message you replied to. Generally it's not such an imbalance of power if you're a real business contractor with discernable skills. Think about it, you have higher standards of delivering solutions or superior grasp of a niche - why would a client through a strop and/or define perm-like working regimes. Falls into HMRC's walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is a duck logic IMO. I'm bias because I'm a engineer implementing things; client control of location etc just doesn't make sense. Ultimately you're right that it's on the contractor in question to establish this from the get go.

[PerfectStorm]

You can't take a contract where the client stipulates 3 days in office, professional working day with core hours 10 to 4 and then expect IR35 to work as a reason not to do that is my point.

Which is why I make sure to modify any such contracts - and indeed work accordingly, taking reasonable care to help ensure an Outside outcome :-)

[northernladuk]

I take the point but after what is coming up to three years of largely not going near an office I could personally do with having a reason to leave home once or twice a week.

I'm at client office Wednesdays and occassionaly Tues and Thurs and I love it. Have a much more productive day, get to meet people, get warm and endless coffee for free. I'd rather do a gig three days or less in the office than fully remote personally. Humans are a social group so I think WFH for extended periods truely only really works for a small number of people and certain types of work.

[SussexSeagull]

FTFY

I take the point but after what is coming up to three years of largely not going near an office I could personally do with having a reason to leave home once or twice a week.

[jamesbrown]

Fair comment. I dropped how and focussed on when and where meaning, client office or home and what hours so a very specific scenario. Both of those are generally covered by the contract and are part of the agreement of the work. In general I see your point, but I do think it's very situation specific and when it comes to being used as a sledgehammer to force a client to do something they've agreed and expected it's not an IR35 issue i.e. if its' agreed in the contract or some other documented expecation.

You can't take a contract where the client stipulates 3 days in office, professional working day with core hours 10 to 4 and then expect IR35 to work as a reason not to do that is my point.

It is situation specific because the whole point of IR35 is to build a hypothetical contract and to establish whether it looks like a relationship of employment. It only looks like a relationship of employment if you work in a similar way to how an employee would work (or how similar employees currently work). How employees work is very much dependent on their situation. The power relationship that exists for contractors also exists for employees. Employees and contractors in positions of power can largely dictate the relationship, so it doesn't make sense to compare employees or contractors at different ends of the skill spectrum in the same terms (and they aren't in case law). The when and where will matter insofar as they distinguish contractors from employees. If a client has a general policy of do the work when and where you want, it won't be an IR35 pointer, obviously.

I agree that the contract matters too, but it only matters in relation to IR35 in the sense that it reflects the working practices and those working practices differ from the same practices of similar permies, so I think it's reasonable to assume that these two things are aligned without evidence to the contrary. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that you can assert IR35 as a reason for adopting working practices that are not consistent with the contract and the prior understanding of both parties about the working practices.