Reply to: Late IR35 status determination

[eek]

Seems like a high risk play though, I've worked at FTSE companies having done far lesser transgressions against contractors with pretty bad outcomes in terms of future hiring.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I'd like to think a contractor found in the situation of SDS being swiped before first billing would just leave, take the tax hit on the month's invoice and jump. But I guess some people like getting slapped around.

It's not a month though - it's 3 months quite possibly 4 months into the contract when they present you with the inside determination (remember the cut off point is the end client paying the first invoice which may easily be 90 days after the first timesheet & invoice was sent to the agency)

Now I definitely wouldn't be starting without an SDS saying outside but equally I wouldn't be 100% happy until I was x months down the line.

[northernladuk]

Seems like a high risk play though, I've worked at FTSE companies having done far lesser transgressions against contractors with pretty bad outcomes in terms of future hiring.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I'd like to think a contractor found in the situation of SDS being swiped before first billing would just leave, take the tax hit on the month's invoice and jump. But I guess some people like getting slapped around.

It's a gamble though. Bird in the hand and all that. Can that contractor get another outside gig quickly? If they spend another month looking for an outside gig the now inside one could be the more profitable. What if the next one they get is inside and they are getting the same anyway?

Other factors like remote working or commute, tech, prestige come in to play as well I'd say.

But I agree. I'd stuggle to do a decent job at a client when the rugs been pulled like that.

[TheGreenBastard]

For me it's incredibly easy for a bad actor (and believe me there are a lot of bad actors) to claim that a contract is outside IR35 and then reasons (contractor "behaviour"...) to switch it to inside later on....

Seems like a high risk play though, I've worked at FTSE companies having done far lesser transgressions against contractors with pretty bad outcomes in terms of future hiring.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I'd like to think a contractor found in the situation of SDS being swiped before first billing would just leave, take the tax hit on the month's invoice and jump. But I guess some people like getting slapped around.

[eek]

That is true actually, I was leading on the assumption payment was made.

Still, in practice, has a pretense of a SDS initially been given and swiped? Given typical payment terms it sounds like something that simply wouldn't happen in practice.

For me it's incredibly easy for a bad actor (and believe me there are a lot of bad actors) to claim that a contract is outside IR35 and then reasons (contractor "behaviour"...) to switch it to inside later on....

[TheGreenBastard]

Oh dear. How are you going to "take them to court" for fulfilling their statutory duties to provide a timely SDS, implement a client-led status disagreement process and to revise their SDS, at will, prior to the first payment from the client to the Fee Payer?

That is true actually, I was leading on the assumption payment was made.

Still, in practice, has a pretense of a SDS initially been given and swiped? Given typical payment terms it sounds like something that simply wouldn't happen in practice.

[jamesbrown]

Exactly, and taking it to court, clients don't get final ruling on SDS disputes. I thought we are business people?

Oh dear. How are you going to "take them to court" for fulfilling their statutory duties to provide a timely SDS, implement a client-led status disagreement process and to revise their SDS, at will, prior to the first payment from the client to the Fee Payer?

[eek]

Exactly, and taking it to court, clients don't get final ruling on SDS disputes. I thought we are business people?

What dispute procedure - the whole point is that it's a joke that doesn't exist....

[ensignia]

People that have started new Outside contracts after the rules change - were you given SDSs before you started, or after?

Always before. Would be odd to receive one after you start work.

[TheGreenBastard]

How, exactly? Using the client-led status disagreement process?

Exactly, and taking it to court, clients don't get final ruling on SDS disputes. I thought we are business people?

[jamesbrown]

And you could dispute it. I wouldn't want to be a client in that position.

How, exactly? Using the client-led status disagreement process?

[TheGreenBastard]

thing is they could give you one, and still change it before the first payment from client to agent.

And you could dispute it. I wouldn't want to be a client in that position.

[PerfectStorm]

It's quite obvious you demand one.

And I am doing. It's just annoying and some of the language seems to suggest it being done on working practises after starting (they haven't quite said that, but some of the language hints at it).

People that have started new Outside contracts after the rules change - were you given SDSs before you started, or after?

[Lance]

It's quite obvious you demand one.

thing is they could give you one, and still change it before the first payment from client to agent.

[TheGreenBastard]

It's quite obvious you demand one.

[PerfectStorm]

I have a similar situation. Working on an offer that is very Outside in terms of the contract - even says so in the schedule, off payroll rules don't apply, outside IR35. Has passed an external review with flying colours, BUT I don't have an SDS. I've asked for one before signing.

What are people doing in such situations? They've not said anything like "it'll come when you've started" but...