Reply to: Job board observations contract roles in perm clothes rant

[CheeseSlice]

I don't think this is new. For years I've seen ads that say stuff like "permanent developer/architect/other urgently needed for project to do X". The requirement is clearly contractor material but for some reason they want a permy.

What kind of perm looks at these and says, oh I'll be available in 3 months of notice period, so I'll apply! Maybe the client is really looking for contract to perm, or maybe they're just clueless or delusional.. in any case ignore, let them figure it out

[SussexSeagull]

I do so love a school of hard knocks conversation at Christmas.

[hugebrain]

I mean if you are on £250 a day maybe your client will put up with you being that inadequate, but for those of us on proper day rates if you take longer than 2 weeks to become properly useful you will be binned.

In your case either you are ineffectual or your client is an idiot. If it's the first and you are getting away with it then good on you. If it's the latter than you've hit the contract nirvana and you should milk it

You guys totally underestimate how successful an ineffectual programmer can be.

The things you should work on are the firm handshake and a big smile. After that you might worry about whether you can program or not, but it’s not super important. In fact, under COVID restrictions you might not even need the first two things!

[oilboil]

From a software development perspective, i don't about other roles.
But you can start doing bug fixes after 3 days. But major code refactoring and redesign or adding major features, the heavy lifting that we get paid for, normally requires a few months to get up to speed..

I mean if you are on £250 a day maybe your client will put up with you being that inadequate, but for those of us on proper day rates if you take longer than 2 weeks to become properly useful you will be binned.

In your case either you are ineffectual or your client is an idiot. If it's the first and you are getting away with it then good on you. If it's the latter than you've hit the contract nirvana and you should milk it

[BR14]

Which stable is this one from?

the Bethlehem one, i think.

[northernladuk]

Which stable is this one from?

[Fraidycat]

balderdash! if it took that long you'd be out on your ear!

From a software development perspective, i don't about other roles.
But you can start doing bug fixes after 3 days. But major code refactoring and redesign or adding major features, the heavy lifting that we get paid for, normally requires a few months to get up to speed..

[BR14]

it takes most people 3 to 6 months just to get up to speed on a project.

.

balderdash! if it took that long you'd be out on your ear!

[SueEllen]

As I understand it, you can be fired for absolutely any reason in the first two years. Another beautiful contribution to labour laws by the Tories / Dave Scameroon.

My contractor friend is being pushed out of a contract role and he knows that they're in the process of replacing him with a 6 month 'perm' head. Then again, it's all remote now so they've likely figured since the contractor did so well remotely why not get Raj from Rajasthan on £15 per week to do the same.

Not anything covered by the equality laws.

Plus health conditions can change into a disability at anytime....

[Abbot]

To my knowledge agencies dont receive their full fee until the permie passess probation. I have heard of some agency contracts where the agency will refund the firm, if the employee doesnt stay for at least 1 year.

In a past life as a permie recruiting manager that certainly was not the case for me. They might have given a rebate or a free replacement but they certainly did not refund when a new hire walked out, regardless of whether they were in or post probation. Someone walked out on his first day and the full fee was still due.

[sira]

No that will destroy morale amongst the existing perms. Perms are all about job security. Will scare the crap out of them.
Plus there is a hefty up front agent fee to hiring perms.
Plus the on boarding process, it takes most people 3 to 6 months just to get up to speed on a project.

Like others have said, FTC is the way to try it on.

1 year FTC perm is the same cost as a 6 month contract.

To my knowledge agencies dont receive their full fee until the permie passess probation. I have heard of some agency contracts where the agency will refund the firm, if the employee doesnt stay for at least 1 year.

[sira]

You understand UK employment law incorrectly if you think you can be fired for any reason for the first two years. You can't. It has to be a good reason, and procedures must be followed.

The OP is correct. The UK has very weak labour laws and it is very easy to fire people - seen it with my own eyes. Yes companies need to following their internal "procedures" but they can fire you easily.

Saw it happen many times when I used to work in Investment Banking. If they want to get rid of people, they say your performance is below the required standard (no evidence needed, only the managers word). They put you on a 1 month performance programme and no matter how good you perform the manager simply says again "sorry not good enough". And viola your, sacked.

Infact, it happened to a close friend of mine. He took a perm IB role for a large scale transition project, it was a a mix of project and BAU and was supposed to be pure BAU once the project was completed (18-24 month project). He completed his most critical part of the project in 5 months and a few weeks before the end of his probation they canned him citing "budget" reasons. Since then, he has flat out refused any perm job which involves a significant amount of project work and only goes for roles which largely have a BAU component.

In the current environment this type of funny business will be happening alot, and will carry on until the gravy train gets going again.

[Fraidycat]

With this perm BS, it doesn't take an idiot to figure out they'll have you lead on for 6 months or whatever and then they'll ditch you post project.

No that will destroy morale amongst the existing perms. Perms are all about job security. Will scare the crap out of them.
Plus there is a hefty up front agent fee to hiring perms.
Plus the on boarding process, it takes most people 3 to 6 months just to get up to speed on a project.

Like others have said, FTC is the way to try it on.

1 year FTC perm is the same cost as a 6 month contract.

[SussexSeagull]

I would have thought the would either recruit someone inside IR35 or FTC if they didn't want contractors anymore.

[NotAllThere]

As I understand it, you can be fired for absolutely any reason in the first two years. Another beautiful contribution to labour laws by the Tories / Dave Scameroon.

You understand UK employment law incorrectly if you think you can be fired for any reason for the first two years. You can't. It has to be a good reason, and procedures must be followed.

What you will find is companies going FTC. They're far less problematic.

My contractor friend is being pushed out of a contract role and he knows that they're in the process of replacing him with a 6 month 'perm' head. Then again, it's all remote now so they've likely figured since the contractor did so well remotely why not get an offshore resource on £15 per week to do the same.

It's finding such a person offshore that can do the job that's the challenge.

There is a chance they'll be more encouraged to try outsourcing of course. But most companies soon learn that it is only cost effective in certain specific scenarios.