Reply to: Recruiters and rate per hour

[ladymuck]

Exactly. Mechanical goods vs refrigerated goods - not even in the same ballpark. By that argument (or I guess the argument that underpins the question), your rate could never go up.

I think that is the intention of some people who ask the question. But it's easy to fib about that anyway.

[Old Greg]

I agree - the current rate thing is really annoying. Are they trying to say that your previous job shelf stacking in Morrisons is a direct equivalent of shelf stacking in Halfords?

Exactly. Mechanical goods vs refrigerated goods - not even in the same ballpark. By that argument (or I guess the argument that underpins the question), your rate could never go up.

[ladymuck]

I found the gig I've just started myself, and was then introduced by end client to their PSL agency to negotiate rate. I gave a quote and was told it was very high and was asked if it was more than my current rate. It's the "what's your current rate" approach that irks me. Anyway, I explained that I was prevented by an NDA for revealing my current rate, and after three weeks grumbling, the client agreed.

I agree - the current rate thing is really annoying. Are they trying to say that your previous job shelf stacking in Morrisons is a direct equivalent of shelf stacking in Halfords?

[Old Greg]

I found the gig I've just started myself, and was then introduced by end client to their PSL agency to negotiate rate. I gave a quote and was told it was very high and was asked if it was more than my current rate. It's the "what's your current rate" approach that irks me. Anyway, I explained that I was prevented by an NDA for revealing my current rate, and after three weeks grumbling, the client agreed.

[eek]

A lot depends on where you are in the process and how many people are still in competition as there is a significant difference between 1 in 200 possible candidates prior to the first stage and negotiating the final contract..

But even in enterprise sales there can be a vast difference between what 2 companies will pay for the same solution as for some it's just a nice to have that solves a minor annoyance yet for others that same software could resolve a $500,000 black hole.

[jayn200]

The person who suggests an initial price is always at a negotiating disadvantage - which is why I avoid doing it unless absolutely necessary. Heck there are a lot of stories in software where the initial customer offer is twice to 5 times what the seller was expecting.

One of the things I'm finding in all the sales training I'm currently following (alongside you can't do sales so don't try) is that the best thing to do is qualify out quickly

1) does the person have a problem you can solve
2) does the problem cause enough pain that the person wants it fixed quickly
3) does the person have enough money to pay your rate for fixing the problem.

And if all people care about is money it's probably not worth taking the project on in the first place.

It's interesting that's what you learned in sales training as I learned the opposite in graduate level negotiation class.

There are some concepts called anchoring and zone of possible agreement (zopa) in negotiation that are relevant and typically favour the party that gives the first price that is acknowledged by the other party (known as an anchor). Negotiations typically will work away from this number towards the zopa until it reaches the edge of it, enabling the buyer to get the lowest possible price or the seller to get the highest possible price depending on who was able to establish their anchor and assuming a zopa exists and assuming that the buyers bargaining range is below the sellers (which is the most common stance in negotiations).

Sure in your case you just explained it may be the case that you wouldn't want to be the anchor because you are on the wrong side of the zopa but that is because you didn't know the market price of your services. You didn't do your research. Your bargaining range was actually below that of your clients which is a horrible situation to be in. It's usually the reverse.

Anyway I don't know how much of that is relevant since we are talking about negotiating with a 3rd party prior to the actual negotiation but still interesting to find out you were taught the complete opposite of what I was.

[eek]

That sounds like you've been on a John Niland course!

Could equal well be Sandler or a few others - they are all much of a much ness at the end of the day.

The truth is that I now know I can't do the emoting that is required in sales so I need someone else to do that side of things

But given that I do CRM systems it's remarkable how much hope (outside of reality) is stored in most of them...

[ladymuck]

The person who suggests an initial price is always at a negotiating disadvantage - which is why I avoid doing it unless absolutely necessary. Heck there are a lot of stories in software where the initial customer offer is twice to 5 times what the seller was expecting.

One of the things I'm finding in all the sales training I'm currently following (alongside you can't do sales so don't try) is that the best thing to do is qualify out quickly

1) does the person have a problem you can solve
2) does the problem cause enough pain that the person wants it fixed quickly
3) does the person have enough money to pay your rate for fixing the problem.

And if all people care about is money it's probably not worth taking the project on in the first place.

That sounds like you've been on a John Niland course!

[Paralytic]

My range is very broad - pretty much £ to £x2. Depends on location - near to home, UK or EU; type of clearance required and specific contract spec.

Me too, but mine is £ to £/2.

[eek]

Ask for a bit more than you want and say "and of course I can do deals for the right people" - that gives you room to both come down to the rate you want and allows the agent to feel that they can go somewhere with it too. Then ask them what they're paying, and negotiate accordingly.

The person who suggests an initial price is always at a negotiating disadvantage - which is why I avoid doing it unless absolutely necessary. Heck there are a lot of stories in software where the initial customer offer is twice to 5 times what the seller was expecting.

One of the things I'm finding in all the sales training I'm currently following (alongside you can't do sales so don't try) is that the best thing to do is qualify out quickly

1) does the person have a problem you can solve
2) does the problem cause enough pain that the person wants it fixed quickly
3) does the person have enough money to pay your rate for fixing the problem.

And if all people care about is money it's probably not worth taking the project on in the first place.

[David71]

When asked to give a rate, I give a range and state that my rate is determined by the role and its location.

This.

My range is very broad - pretty much £ to £x2. Depends on location - near to home, UK or EU; type of clearance required and specific contract spec.

Current gig was through a framework so I even costed in the framework 'management fee' and added that on top.

Way too many variables to have a single fixed day rate.

[PerfectStorm]

Ask for a bit more than you want and say "and of course I can do deals for the right people" - that gives you room to both come down to the rate you want and allows the agent to feel that they can go somewhere with it too. Then ask them what they're paying, and negotiate accordingly.

[jayn200]

I don't have a problem with pricing myself based off the original job ad, the client (company + industry + location), working conditions (hours, flexible working, etc), how desperate or interested I am. So I just ask these questions back. Also sometimes I ask them what the client's budget is or what rates other candidates are being submitted with, it's like 50/50 whether they offer that info up. The more information you can get the better but they can also lie and you can end up getting anchored as well. Obviously in an ideal world you would negotiate directly with the decision maker and only after they have decided they want you but the world is not ideal.

[BlasterBates]

Surely you have an hourly rate plus expenses, just quote it.

I don't quite get the "I need to check it out", unless you want to signal you're putting your rate down.

[ladymuck]

So knowing you, Ken High Street standard rate, anything further than lower Ken Church Street x4?

I may stretch to a full half mile radius from my front door before the price goes up.

My rate more depends on how interested I am in the gig. If it's an industry I'd like to get into or a project that sounds good then I'll take a lower rate. Repeat clients won't get fleeced as they tend to generate longer term work. Next time Barclays or RBS come calling, they will get the sod off and leave me alone rate (and, yes, if I'm not working I'd take the gig at that rate until I find somewhere sane to work)