Originally posted by LondonPM1
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Previously on "Handcuff Rule - Anyone been taken to court?"
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Originally posted by eek View PostNo we don't, you do but it's up to the OP to say what he wants and given this is second hand information regarding a friend I suspect he knows little more than he's told us
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I'll be spilling all the beans on my case when I get a court hearing.
Unless I lose of course.
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Originally posted by LondonPM1 View PostWe need a lot more details
1) Did you serve a defence
2) Did they serve a reply to defence
3) Was there a pre trial case management conference call
4) Was it county court
5) Were witness statements exchanged
6) Were skeleton arguments exchangedLast edited by eek; 18 September 2020, 07:42.
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Originally posted by checkerman View PostAn update.
Court date was due next week.
Judge has thrown it out before getting there.
I don't have any more details than that, or the reasons behind it.
1) Did you serve a defence
2) Did they serve a reply to defence
3) Was there a pre trial case management conference call
4) Was it county court
5) Were witness statements exchanged
6) Were skeleton arguments exchanged
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Thrown Out
An update.
Court date was due next week.
Judge has thrown it out before getting there.
I don't have any more details than that, or the reasons behind it.
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The amount they were asking for seemed somewhat high, plus he was given two different figures. The invoice he was sent is actually more than what he they are now claiming for - all be it only slightly lower.
I do know someone who was taken to court recently in a completely different line of work - they were a salesman and permanent member of staff and were moving to another company that sold similar products - a claim for money was made against him, but only a cease was granted, and he couldn't start for 6mnths at his new company.
To clarify it wasn't HMRC, but looks like a court/small claims court claim. The screenshot showed gov.uk website. not hmrc, my bad.
I'm glad it's not me in this position, but knowing the agency I would hate for them to win! I know a number of contractors that have switched from them to another agency when they shouldn't have done. Luckily I dodged them at the last minute and went with another more reputable agency before signing with them. At the time I didn't know what they were like but went with the agency that was paying almost 100pd more....It was only after I started and met some contractors doing the same role, getting paid far less, and having to wait over two months to get their money. But hey they signed the contract.....
Thanks everyone, its great to get some feedback, I will let you know what happens.
checkerman
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Originally posted by checkerman View PostBut my actual question was "I'm interested in seeing if anyone else has had this or actually gone to court ?" and "failing that is shutting down the company not an option ?
Originally posted by checkerman View PostI'm just intrigued at how likely an agency will successfully win - and if they do what are the chances of them getting the money they are 'owed' ( I will report back here if it ever gets that far)
For instance they have sent a bill for a loss of earnings of 6mnths. Well his renewal is 3mnths, so if he leaves after 3, how valid is that claim ?
If the contract was for 3 months then getting 6 months of losses awarded is for the birds. It's a starting position for a negotiation (see first point). Also when going to court the 'without prejudice' letters aren't evidence so the full starting amount is where the claim starts. Another reason why these rarely end up in court as the starting valuie is too high. Judges are not happy about cases that should never have been brough to court. They are a last resort not a starting position.
Originally posted by checkerman View PostIf a court rules in the favor of the agency - and he then decides to shut down the company - how can the money be retrieved from the individual ? I'm sure I saw a post exactly on this forum where an agency/someone was owed a lot of money, they ruled in their favor, the amount wasn't paid, went back to court, agreed payment terms were setup, nothing paid, company shutdown, and the advice on this forum was to just forget about ever getting your money.
IANAL
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Originally posted by checkerman View PostIf a court rules in the favor of the agency - and he then decides to shut down the company - how can the money be retrieved from the individual ? I'm sure I saw a post exactly on this forum where an agency/someone was owed a lot of money, they ruled in their favor, the amount wasn't paid, went back to court, agreed payment terms were setup, nothing paid, company shutdown, and the advice on this forum was to just forget about ever getting your money.
This is assuming the handcuff clause was in the company's name. I wouldn't put it past agency's getting contractors to sign on a personal basis.
Did you find out why he logged onto the HMRC website?
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Thanks for all your replies.
Your right, unfortunately I don't have all the details, and yes I already agreed he needs a lawyer.
But my actual question was "I'm interested in seeing if anyone else has had this or actually gone to court ?" and "failing that is shutting down the company not an option ?
I'm just intrigued at how likely an agency will successfully win - and if they do what are the chances of them getting the money they are 'owed' ( I will report back here if it ever gets that far)
For instance they have sent a bill for a loss of earnings of 6mnths. Well his renewal is 3mnths, so if he leaves after 3, how valid is that claim ?
If a court rules in the favor of the agency - and he then decides to shut down the company - how can the money be retrieved from the individual ? I'm sure I saw a post exactly on this forum where an agency/someone was owed a lot of money, they ruled in their favor, the amount wasn't paid, went back to court, agreed payment terms were setup, nothing paid, company shutdown, and the advice on this forum was to just forget about ever getting your money.
Thanks everybody for your replies - I will report back in the future to let you know how things went.
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Originally posted by fidot View PostWhat do HMRC have to do with it?
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Originally posted by Lance View PostNormally a handcuff clause is used against an individual. Despite the clause being in a LTD. company contract.
Best advise is to stick to your contract and not try to rip the agencies off. They have legal teams for this sort of thing.
If you want to go direct let the client force it with the agency. Or leave and return after 6 months.
Don't forget that there is likely to be an enforceable penalty clause in the contract between client and the agency as well. Not your concern, technically, but it would be something the client should think about.
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Originally posted by Lance View PostI was over simplifying it a bit.
In reality, an agent would look to sue (as a last resort) for losses.
A half-way house would be where a judge issues a cease and desist order against an individual. That won't get the agent any money but it does draw a stop to an individual working for that client, by any route. Whether that involves 'piercing the veil' or not I'm not sure.
IANAL
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostI don't think what Lance says is strictly true. The handcuff is against anyone in the Ltd but there is only the director so it looks like its targeting the individual. If there were more people it would cover them as well. If that makes sense.
If you shut the company, open an new one and rock up they could attempt to 'pierce the corporate veil' which would allow them to target the person regardless of the company set up. It is a very thinly veiled attempt to off load the companies obligations and allow the same person to work so they can look beyond the company to combat this.
In reality, an agent would look to sue (as a last resort) for losses.
A half-way house would be where a judge issues a cease and desist order against an individual. That won't get the agent any money but it does draw a stop to an individual working for that client, by any route. Whether that involves 'piercing the veil' or not I'm not sure.
IANALLast edited by Lance; 4 November 2019, 13:06.
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