Reply to: Private Sector Contractor working for a public sector body

[psychocandy]

What was the outcome? Inside IR35? outside IR35? Borderline at best? It is what it is?

Well, now that you ask.

- Agency (who are internal dept of consultancy client) have decreed every contractor out of scope. They SAY they've asked PS end client too.

- Above link from HMRC seems to confirm that working for the consultancy, and they way the contract with PS is structured, confirms this.

- HMRC Tool places me outside anyway. Honest!

[psychocandy]

Impressed you got a photo of a welsh jobcentre yn Gymraeg!

[northernladyuk]

[MrMarkyMark]

Most likely a combination of the two

[northernladuk]

What was the outcome? Inside IR35? outside IR35? Borderline at best? It is what it is?

[MrMarkyMark]

What was the outcome? Inside IR35? outside IR35? Borderline at best? It is what it is?

[northernladyuk]

I was in same situation at last client. They're still trying to talk me into going back.

It was a nightmare trying to get some sense out of them. In the end, agency got back with an official email saying they'd spoken to all the end clients and everyone was not in scope. Must admit it was a bit too convenient.

As others have said, it does depend on how you are provided to PS client. In my case, it was a managed service (i.e. PS client had no say in to how many or who was provided on site) so it looked ok.

What was the outcome? Inside IR35? outside IR35? Borderline at best? It is what it is?

[psychocandy]

The latest guidance is here, together with examples:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/off-payr...r-6-april-2017

Essentially, if the consultancy is supplying labour, rather than a fully outsourced service, then that supply is within scope, but not necessarily within IR35, i.e. an official determination must be made. As they've said all along, if the consultancy is acting in a similar capacity to an agency, it's within scope.

Where it does clarify matters, I think, is that anyone working onsite routinely at the PSB is going to be within scope (but, again, not necessarily caught).

I was in same situation at last client. They're still trying to talk me into going back.

It was a nightmare trying to get some sense out of them. In the end, agency got back with an official email saying they'd spoken to all the end clients and everyone was not in scope. Must admit it was a bit too convenient.

As others have said, it does depend on how you are provided to PS client. In my case, it was a managed service (i.e. PS client had no say in to how many or who was provided on site) so it looked ok.

[jamesbrown]

Wasn't there an article earlier this week saying consultancies are up in arms as the latest guidance puts their contractors inside?

The latest guidance is here, together with examples:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/off-payr...r-6-april-2017

Essentially, if the consultancy is supplying labour, rather than a fully outsourced service, then that supply is within scope, but not necessarily within IR35, i.e. an official determination must be made. As they've said all along, if the consultancy is acting in a similar capacity to an agency, it's within scope.

Where it does clarify matters, I think, is that anyone working onsite routinely at the PSB is going to be within scope (but, again, not necessarily caught).

[GB9]

Wasn't there an article earlier this week saying consultancies are up in arms as the latest guidance puts their contractors inside?

[jamesbrown]

Hi Eek, your last point there, does this mean that the ESS tool is to be used for every contractor engaged by a consultancy on site? I was wondering how the PSB would know? Is there an obligation on the consultancy to tell them?

There is no obligation to use the ESS. There is an obligation on the PSB to determine which of their contracts for services are within the scope of the new rules (i.e. which services are fully outsourced vs. supplies of labour) and, for those within scope, whether IR35 applies. For the latter, the ESS is optional, but a status decision is compulsory. Some PSBs are taking blanket (inside) decisions, while others are looking case-by-case. Of the latter, I expect many will be using the new ESS. The PSB is required to inform the consultancy about whether the services are within scope and, if so, what determination has been reached. In practice, they may do this collaboratively with the consultancy/agency or not, but the liability rests with the fee payer (last in the chain prior to the PSC), so they ultimately need to agree too.

[gables]

In which case the answer is as I state in the FAQ that it depends on how the public sector client treats you....

You may be caught, you may not be the answer depends on

• what you are working on,
• who you are working with,
• who is managing the project and
• what the public sector client decided when asked to fill in the ESS form....

Hi Eek, your last point there, does this mean that the ESS tool is to be used for every contractor engaged by a consultancy on site? I was wondering how the PSB would know? Is there an obligation on the consultancy to tell them?

[eek]

Before I get blazed for not searching the site, I did try to but failed miserably no doubt I have googled this in general and asked accountants and agency without getting a answer that was not woolly.

If a contractor is contracted to an agency and the end client is a private sector company who then provides a service to a public sector body would that make the contractor a public or private? The contractor works at the public sector location.

Appreciate any comments anyone puts

In which case the answer is as I state in the FAQ that it depends on how the public sector client treats you....

You may be caught, you may not be the answer depends on

• what you are working on,
• who you are working with,
• who is managing the project and
• what the public sector client decided when asked to fill in the ESS form....

[northernladuk]

It's flamed. You'll get flamed for not searching.

[cojak]

Look here: http://forums.contractoruk.com/publi...ml#post2360149

Specifically "Working through a Consultancy".