Reply to: State of the Market

[Protagoras]

New buzz word for PM is Engagement Manager, especially SAAS implementations.

I saw this one the other day, "empathy engineer". It's got nothing to do with any kind of engineering and makes me wonder whether we're close to peak Tulip.

As for "belonging manager" I'd probably not have kind words to say.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...-tech-jobs-pay

[fatJock]

aye, - right. 1/5th of my time.

Contracting 9 years, working in IT 32 years.

Not everything is a competition fella

[sadkingbilly]

I've only been contracting nine years ... .

Ah, SKB and his hatred of PM's.

But no, Ladymuck nailed it - more experienced than half the techs I work with so I can see through their BS because I spent years at the same coalface.

aye, - right. 1/5th of my time.

[Manic]

New buzz word for PM is Engagement Manager, especially SAAS implementations.

[Protagoras]

As a developer the hiring process has changed dramatically. Almost every firm will hit you with a barrage of Leetcode hard questions before any discussion of your experience and track record.

In the late 90s I worked for a consultancy (as a PM ).

It was common practice to have a coding test for developer recruits and I was always amazed how many walked away rather than submit to the test.

I must say that I'd favour an actual skill based test any day of the week over that so-called competency based interview method where one was expected to contrive an answer to an unrealistic scenario.

[fatJock]

to understand when they tell you your project timescales are sh1te because the systems just don't work that way, you mean.

Ah, SKB and his hatred of PM's.

But no, Ladymuck nailed it - more experienced than half the techs I work with so I can see through their BS because I spent years at the same coalface.

[malvolio]

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that I don't value PMs and BAs.. I really do.
Nor that the roles are completely gone, only that I'm seeing a _lot_ fewer of them these days. Particularly PMs.

It's normally people in these roles that I seek out first in new contracts. Often to find some useless Scrum Lord or SME in place instead.

I think they are fading in the development arena, as people are moving to Agile (proper agile, not pretendy Scrummaging), they aren't really needed and the BA is the key interface.

But the linkage between users and IT services is still business critical and that is best done by a PM. I agree I'm biased having done just that for over 10 years, but when I upgraded to service architecture, my key IT contact into the various silos was always a PM of some sort, even if they weren't labelled as such..

[TheDude]

The market has definitely changed but I still feel that good people, with a solid track record don't generally struggle to find roles .... and often through recommendation and or return to prior clients. If I was a developer I'd be more worried than I am as a PM which I can't see any problems with me eking out the next five years till retirement.

As a developer the hiring process has changed dramatically. Almost every firm will hit you with a barrage of Leetcode hard questions before any discussion of your experience and track record.

[Dorkeaux]

As someone who similarly has no issues in finding work as a role suggested to be in demise [Project Management] I think it's too broad sweeping to suggest roles have disappeared but I agree they have most definitely changed.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that I don't value PMs and BAs.. I really do.
Nor that the roles are completely gone, only that I'm seeing a _lot_ fewer of them these days. Particularly PMs.

It's normally people in these roles that I seek out first in new contracts. Often to find some useless Scrum Lord or SME in place instead.

[TheDude]

If my view of ‘the market’ is correct, there are plenty of well-paid permy jobs out there for people between 25 and 45. The halcyon days of the contract market are long gone for generalists. My suspicion is that most on here are over 45, and may struggle to find permy work - either because of ageism in recruiting or cultural fit issues.

Cultural fit *is* ageism - it also covers every other discrimination they cannot legally use to exclude you from a job.

[ladymuck]

to understand when they tell you your project timescales are sh1te because the systems just don't work that way, you mean.

Or to understand if their claim has a basis in fact or because they want to string out the job

[sadkingbilly]

The niche I fill is the delivery of true technical projects which need a PM with technical awareness [to keep the techies honest].

to understand when they tell you your project timescales are sh1te because the systems just don't work that way, you mean.

[fatJock]

My 20 years contracting career has been as a non-technical BA. I currently have 3 concurrent gigs. Don't have issues finding work.

Being an old fashioned sort, I believe a BA is all about the business - the clue being in the name - what most BAs really are, are Systems Analysts but that title seems to have fallen out of favour.

As someone who similarly has no issues in finding work as a role suggested to be in demise [Project Management] I think it's too broad sweeping to suggest roles have disappeared but I agree they have most definitely changed.

I didn't start my career as a Project / Programme Manager but came from a technical background of infrastructure design and deployment. The niche I fill is the delivery of true technical projects which need a PM with technical awareness [to keep the techies honest] but also the soft skills to keep stakeholders engaged all while doing the comms and budget management. I don't seem to have a problem filling it with unsolicited contact from agents every couple of weeks despite being in contract.

The market has definitely changed but I still feel that good people, with a solid track record don't generally struggle to find roles .... and often through recommendation and or return to prior clients. If I was a developer I'd be more worried than I am as a PM which I can't see any problems with me eking out the next five years till retirement.

I've only been contracting nine years ... and when I started folks on here were saying it was knackered then.

[Dorkeaux]

Couldn't agree with this post more. I don't think the contract market will ever come back. Unless there is something major like Y2K, which is highly unlikely. But if you have specialist skills you will be fine but most of us don't. On ageism, I thought I wouldn't find a permie job at 55, was looking for last couple of years with rejection after rejection. But got one in the end and start in a couple of weeks. So there is some hope.

Have this hand-crafted tropical fruit:

[Protagoras]

On ageism, I thought I wouldn't find a permie job at 55, was looking for last couple of years with rejection after rejection. But got one in the end and start in a couple of weeks. So there is some hope.

That's really great news. Congratulations.

I must say that I think that this makes a lot of sense given the wider environment and hopefully the role will see you through to retirement.
You just need to be able to cope with the world of employment .