Reply to: State of the Market

[squarepeg]

Aren't immigrants coming here to work as a preferred choice of the employer? Which means they provide better value (same labor / less expenses). It look like employers are simply seizing opportunity, which is considered normal in capitalism. I don't think that an immigrant can come here to take anyone's job without employer's taking care of his visa, ILR, etc.
I would of think that this is employers (large businesses) who are profiteering at our expense, making our lives significantly worse.

No. The end client (the employer) pays only slightly lower rate or even the same rate as before. The consultancies take a large cut of the contractor/employee's rate. The quality of work is low. Over the last decade I worked on about half a dozen projects where either imported labour or offshore labour was used and the quality was awful. In one case it tanked a promising startup in the the other it took a whole year to not deliver an important project.

[SussexSeagull]

Aren't immigrants coming here to work as a preferred choice of the employer? Which means they provide better value (same labor / less expenses). It look like employers are simply seizing opportunity, which is considered normal in capitalism. I don't think that an immigrant can come here to take anyone's job without employer's taking care of his visa, ILR, etc.
I would of think that this is employers (large businesses) who are profiteering at our expense, making our lives significantly worse.

Absolutely.

[SussexSeagull]

Weapons.

They seem to be doing ok on that front. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...2.cms?from=mdr

[avonleigh]

Aren't immigrants coming here to work as a preferred choice of the employer? Which means they provide better value (same labor / less expenses). It look like employers are simply seizing opportunity, which is considered normal in capitalism. I don't think that an immigrant can come here to take anyone's job without employer's taking care of his visa, ILR, etc.
I would of think that this is employers (large businesses) who are profiteering at our expense, making our lives significantly worse.

Not better value. My experience is that cheap labour costs more in the long term. As you have to redo the work in most cases.

[Sub]

At our expense. Making our lives significantly worse and us poorer too.

Aren't immigrants coming here to work as a preferred choice of the employer? Which means they provide better value (same labor / less expenses). It look like employers are simply seizing opportunity, which is considered normal in capitalism. I don't think that an immigrant can come here to take anyone's job without employer's taking care of his visa, ILR, etc.
I would of think that this is employers (large businesses) who are profiteering at our expense, making our lives significantly worse.

[squarepeg]

I agree with both those points, and ironically those self same people who came over are in the same boat as the rest of us now.

If I could sort out the balance of trade deficit with India I wouldn't be wasting my time on here. In fairness it is an emerging market but Whisky aside I struggle to see what we can offer them that they can't sort out themselves.

Weapons.

[escapeUK]

Despite their only fault is desire to do better for themselves and their families and being unlucky to be born poor.

At our expense. Making our lives significantly worse and us poorer too.

[avonleigh]

Thing is that this narrative about immigration is always a distraction. You mentioned Brexit vote above and this is great example. There also were two years of anti-immigration hysteria before the vote and it worked like a charm. Despite Brexit was nothing to do with immigration from non-EU countries, despite 20% of NHS staff was from EU, despite potential loss of Northern Ireland (all that been in public domain). Farmers even managed to shot themselves into chin instead of foot.

And here we go again, instead of discussing Thames Water and need for private profits in essential infrastructure, workers rights, consistent cuts in public services and other complex, but actual issues everyone seem to be content to blame guys coming from other countries instead. Despite their only fault is desire to do better for themselves and their families and being unlucky to be born poor.

What has Thames Water, workers rights etc got to do with immigration? Sorry but you seem to have a chip on shoulder regarding immigration.

[SussexSeagull]

Thing is that this narrative about immigration is always a distraction. You mentioned Brexit vote above and this is great example. There also were two years of anti-immigration hysteria before the vote and it worked like a charm. Despite Brexit was nothing to do with immigration from non-EU countries, despite 20% of NHS staff was from EU, despite potential loss of Northern Ireland (all that been in public domain). Farmers even managed to shot themselves into chin instead of foot.

And here we go again, instead of discussing Thames Water and need for private profits in essential infrastructure, workers rights, consistent cuts in public services and other complex, but actual issues everyone seem to be content to blame guys coming from other countries instead. Despite their only fault is desire to do better for themselves and their families and being unlucky to be born poor.

As I have said elsewhere we need controlled immigration to this country but in what I do, IT, it went over the top. I was very much a Remainer (or rejoiner now I guess) but a surprising amount of quite educated people assumed all immigration was decided by the EU. You and me might not like it but that is just a fact.

The likes of Thames Water need to be sorted out and a sensible immigration policy needs putting in place. It isn't an either/or.

Offering a balanced critique of immigration isn't racist and it isn't even anti immigration. To suggest otherwise disingenuous.

[Sub]

I agree with both those points, and ironically those self same people who came over are in the same boat as the rest of us now.

Thing is that this narrative about immigration is always a distraction. You mentioned Brexit vote above and this is great example. There also were two years of anti-immigration hysteria before the vote and it worked like a charm. Despite Brexit was nothing to do with immigration from non-EU countries, despite 20% of NHS staff was from EU, despite potential loss of Northern Ireland (all that been in public domain). Farmers even managed to shot themselves into chin instead of foot.

And here we go again, instead of discussing Thames Water and need for private profits in essential infrastructure, workers rights, consistent cuts in public services and other complex, but actual issues everyone seem to be content to blame guys coming from other countries instead. Despite their only fault is desire to do better for themselves and their families and being unlucky to be born poor.

[SussexSeagull]

Strange, I thought that this is business lobbied through those visas so they can bring in cheap work force and enjoy elevated profits for the 1-2 years window until those poor guys realize that life on £25K is hell and start asking for a raise. And then bring new ones, who aren't learned that yet.

And out of interest what exactly UK can sell to India to tackle the deficit?

I agree with both those points, and ironically those self same people who came over are in the same boat as the rest of us now.

If I could sort out the balance of trade deficit with India I wouldn't be wasting my time on here. In fairness it is an emerging market but Whisky aside I struggle to see what we can offer them that they can't sort out themselves.

[Sub]

In IT we issued Visa to Indian IT workers in part to stop companies having to pay the going rate but also to try and open up the Indian Market. At last count our trade deficit to India was £2.7 billion.

Strange, I thought that this is business lobbied through those visas so they can bring in cheap work force and enjoy elevated profits for the 1-2 years window until those poor guys realize that life on £25K is hell and start asking for a raise. And then bring new ones, who aren't learned that yet.

And out of interest what exactly UK can sell to India to tackle the deficit?

[SussexSeagull]

I am sure the Ukraine - Russia war and the the problems in the Middle East (although there has been some sort of problem in the middle east for my entire career) don't help matters but talk of global armageddon aren't really helpful to this discussion.

Globalisation isn't going anywhere and in many ways we don't want it to. The problem is this country has become quite poor at exploiting it over the last 15 years or so. Brexit was largely voted through by people who wanted to reduce immigration and immigration is now at record levels and we don't have access to the largest market in the world anymore.

In IT we issued Visa to Indian IT workers in part to stop companies having to pay the going rate but also to try and open up the Indian Market. At last count our trade deficit to India was £2.7 billion.

You reap what you sow. We kept electing governments that offered increasingly simple answers to complex questions and then get shocked when a new government points out we have structural problems.

[Sub]

Maybe I should go to writing that Science Fiction novel book since everyone is thinking of melodrama in the world.

Go for it, we already had something like that before.

In his 1909 book The Great Illusion, Norman Angell argued that developed countries were becoming so economically dependent on each other that the costs of international conflict far outweighed its gains.

[rocktronAMP]

Global reset may come in a form of global war. It seems there more and more anger is being expressed around. People eagerly search for ones to blame for the state of economy? Government, immigrants, programmers from India, AI?

I am sure that guys at the top of the pyramid will figure out how to channel the anger. Plus we have legions of young people unable to understand what to do with themselves - who can resist temptation to turn them to cannon fodder? War will write off debts and allow fresh start, but only for rich.

Keep it up boys, blame everyone that looks different and speak bad English. I am sure you will be offered a common enemy and methods for final solution very soon.

Well global war means:

Brazil versus Argentina
America versus non-America
India versus Pakistan / Bangladesh
Goodness know and pick any African state to have beef somebody else
Minimum 1000 km radius of Tehran is barren radiation dust ball, full of deadly bio-virus and no-return with 10,000 years
Minimum 1000 km radius of Tel Aviv is also barren and gone
President Putin finally does go tactical nuclear on the Eastern European borders.
And where does Great Britain fit in this dystopian vision

State of the Market. THIS. IS. NOT.

I remember reading Judge Dredd. 2000A.D circa 1980s. That Eastern Blok is different now. That Megacity is also different.

Fantasy land won't actually help us out in the end.

What we need to do, is actually figure out how to live together and survive on this Earth planet in a post-pandemic world without the Guns 'n' Roses notion: Appetite for Destruction.

Trading is the answer. Wealth distribution is the definite answer.

You don't bomb your counterparties.
You trade with your counterparties.

That needs to be said to every would be president, prime minister and sovereign ruler; head of state.

Maybe I should go to writing that Science Fiction novel book since everyone is thinking of melodrama in the world.