Reply to: State of the Market

[Dorkeaux]

And how very timely, just got off the phone to one of our Indian friends looking for a backend contractor, London 3 days a week, Inside IR35, £ 400 / day.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen is the state of the market!

Don't think so.

The market is not the same thing as the kite-flying lowball roles posted by randos.
Linkedin, Jobserve, my phone and inbox are crammed with these roles obviously at the low end of the bell curve.
That's why there are so many of them. No one takes them, so all the "agents" efforts go into promoting them.
It's alway been this way, even in the good times.

To put it another way, I work in buildings full of other contractors. I'm pretty sure (but not certain) that none of the independents are on 400 squid a day.

Just nothingburger the obvious desperate shilling roles, the remainder will provide a clearer picture of the market.

IT Jobs Watch has the 90th percentile (we're all there, right?) of IT contractors in London at 775/day or greater.
YMMV.
Contractor UK has some stats as well. That's right Oliverson. Stats..

[oliverson]

Must be silly season, here's another cracker. 10+ years .....

//====================

AI/ML Engineer

Cambridge - £350 - 400 per day
ContractPosted by: Opus Recruitment Solutions Ltd
Posted: Tuesday, 7 October 2025
Apply



See more jobs like this
Role- AI/ML Engineer
Length- 6 months
Location- Cambridge x2-3 per week (non negotiable)
Rate- £400p/d (INSIDE IR35)

• 10+ years of hands-on software engineering experience, ideally in platform or cloud-native environments.
• Deep knowledge of the Microsoft Azure ecosystem and modern .NET development.
• Strong grasp of API architecture, versioning strategies, and secure design principles.
• A problem-solver who can think at scale and architect for the future.
• Experience working in Agile, cross-functional teams, ideally across multiple geographies.
• A passion for mentoring and knowledge sharing.
• Bonus points for experience with AI/ML tools and Python scripting.

LocationCambridge, UK
IndustryIT
Start Date2025-10-06 00:00:00
Rate£350 - 400 per day

//====================

It actually gets to the point where you stop being angry doesn't it? Your anger turns to dismay then to laughter. I'm actually grinning as I type this. Probably 4 'interactions' today with each one trying to outdo the other in a race to the bottom.

I'm waiting for one final outcome today. Perhaps this will be the icing on the cake, or perhaps I'll hear nothing back on that one either.

**** it, I'm off down the beach. 25 degrees outside and pure sunshine.

[oliverson]

contribute? - how?
nothing you, or anyone else says can possibly affect the market.
some just display flexibility.
others (you) just constantly whining.
if you've overextended yourself by exploiting every tax loophole going, that's your problem.
the world does NOT owe you a living.
so, either suck it up and take whatever's going, or go down the swanny.
your call.

There's something in the title of this post, it's called 'State of the Market', a thread where people can talk about how they are finding the market, etc. may of whom share my dismay at what it has become.

Overextended? 'Tax loophole'? I'll have a pint of what you're drinking please.

[sadkingbilly]

You should really get a life. Like one of those Moray eels hiding in the coral until a small fish comes past and then pops its ugly head out.

If you've nothing to say to contribute to the discussion, as has been mentioned by several other posters on here recently, probably best say nowt eh?

contribute? - how?
nothing you, or anyone else says can possibly affect the market.
some just display flexibility.
others (you) just constantly whining.
if you've overextended yourself by exploiting every tax loophole going, that's your problem.
the world does NOT owe you a living.
so, either suck it up and take whatever's going, or go down the swanny.
your call.

[oliverson]

Suppose your company has financial obligations of its own - car lease, flat lease, life assurance, joint-shareholder, all of which require paying at some point. I'm not saying my company has these commitments currently but it has in the past. What do you do to meet those commitments? Pay into your company from the proceeds of heavily taxed inside income? What about expenses incurred in the context of servicing that inside contract? i live about 240 miles from London when I'm in the UK, or 1,400 if I'm out in Spain. Without the ability to claim those expenses, which over my 10 year stint working in London finance averaged out at around £ 30k p.a., I'd have to stump up those expenses, again out of heavily taxed income. And of course, most of the rates, even in London finance for inside roles aren't really that much more than what they were when they were outside.

That's just the financial side. Any company that couldn't give a rats arse about the suppliers they work with, well it says it all to me.

And how very timely, just got off the phone to one of our Indian friends looking for a backend contractor, London 3 days a week, Inside IR35, £ 400 / day.

THAT, ladies and gentlemen is the state of the market!

[Dorkeaux]

Personally don't understand this logic around people being so anti IR35. Sure ... I get it, you want an outside role but income is income. I know some contractors who might focus on the £50 a day less than outside while ignoring the fact that they're not earning at all.

You're in a different position of course with being half in / half out retirement but I see belligerent comments like this all the time. For clarity, I have worked inside and outside IR35 [currently in] and couldn't give a monkeys as long as the cash continues to come in. Inside rate = outside rate + 25%, engager's choice which road they want to go down.

Likewise.
I don't believe I "deserve" a particular rate or engagement type, but I am very much aware of where the market bell curve is for what I do.
When you set your rate at the high end of that bell curve, you trade the higher rate and better contract for a longer seek time and more competition.

If you are not keeping an eye on where the bell curve is right now for your skillset, or your ego is telling you that you are "worth" the highest rate you ever achieved, or you haven't been keeping your skills updated that might be why you have been out of work for x years.

I sometimes take a bit of a hit when the inside rate doesn't pay the equivalent net of an outside role, but then again sometimes I don't.
Also, maxing out salary sacrifice into a SIPP can take much of the sting out of an inside role.

I'll take inside or outside, but people draw the line at different points.
I don't take permie roles nor FTCs. But I would if I had to. And not complain, much.

[oliverson]

some people just like whining

You should really get a life. Like one of those Moray eels hiding in the coral until a small fish comes past and then pops its ugly head out.

If you've nothing to say to contribute to the discussion, as has been mentioned by several other posters on here recently, probably best say nowt eh?

[oliverson]

Personally don't understand this logic around people being so anti IR35. Sure ... I get it, you want an outside role but income is income. I know some contractors who might focus on the £50 a day less than outside while ignoring the fact that they're not earning at all.

You're in a different position of course with being half in / half out retirement but I see belligerent comments like this all the time. For clarity, I have worked inside and outside IR35 [currently in] and couldn't give a monkeys as long as the cash continues to come in. Inside rate = outside rate + 25%, engager's choice which road they want to go down.

Suppose your company has financial obligations of its own - car lease, flat lease, life assurance, joint-shareholder, all of which require paying at some point. I'm not saying my company has these commitments currently but it has in the past. What do you do to meet those commitments? Pay into your company from the proceeds of heavily taxed inside income? What about expenses incurred in the context of servicing that inside contract? i live about 240 miles from London when I'm in the UK, or 1,400 if I'm out in Spain. Without the ability to claim those expenses, which over my 10 year stint working in London finance averaged out at around £ 30k p.a., I'd have to stump up those expenses, again out of heavily taxed income. And of course, most of the rates, even in London finance for inside roles aren't really that much more than what they were when they were outside.

That's just the financial side. Any company that couldn't give a rats arse about the suppliers they work with, well it says it all to me.

[sadkingbilly]

some people just like whining

[fatJock]

The new norm is the two approaches I've had off LinkedIn this very morning. 1. Inside IR35. 2. Fixed Term Contract.

There's no new norm for me, it's outside or nothing.

Personally don't understand this logic around people being so anti IR35. Sure ... I get it, you want an outside role but income is income. I know some contractors who might focus on the £50 a day less than outside while ignoring the fact that they're not earning at all.

You're in a different position of course with being half in / half out retirement but I see belligerent comments like this all the time. For clarity, I have worked inside and outside IR35 [currently in] and couldn't give a monkeys as long as the cash continues to come in. Inside rate = outside rate + 25%, engager's choice which road they want to go down.

[oliverson]

Think we have been at the bottom for a while. Can't possibly get any worse. Think the question is not if this is the bottom but is this the new norm?

The new norm is the two approaches I've had off LinkedIn this very morning. 1. Inside IR35. 2. Fixed Term Contract.

There's no new norm for me, it's outside or nothing.

[ShandyDrinker]

Think we have been at the bottom for a while. Can't possibly get any worse. Think the question is not if this is the bottom but is this the new norm?

IMHO, this is the new norm. Until we get a government that priorities the people already living here, outsourcing, offshoring, nearshoring and so on will continue to dominate.

In addition to this the pledge of the Conservatives to now review IR35 again, they've got balls, I'll give them that.

[avonleigh]

I think the Q3 market is looking better than COVID but not as good as 2008. The question is whether this is the bottom or, we go through the bottom in Q4 and find another low.

Think we have been at the bottom for a while. Can't possibly get any worse. Think the question is not if this is the bottom but is this the new norm?

[Bluenose]

I think the Q3 market is looking better than COVID but not as good as 2008. The question is whether this is the bottom or, we go through the bottom in Q4 and find another low.

[jamesbrown]

The "light at the end of the tunnel" is a Tomahawk cruise missile from a fighter jet mounted on a freight train.