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Previously on "State of the Market"

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  • eek
    replied
    Unless you have travel costs you can’t be earning less on £650 inside than £450 outside.

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    Hybrid roles - for me this is the perfect arangement. 2 days in the office, see people, get meetings done face-to-face. 3 days wfh, peace and quiet to get on with it.

    Inside IR35 - I am currently on 450 outside, recently looked at a 650 inside role, and I would actually be making less in that role! The difference is unbelievable. The only way I could do it (and I would do it), would be to take the inside role but divert the max 60K into my pension to lower the tax bill.

    The way things are with the "irrational exuberence" around the Mag 7 tech stocks is so much like the dotcom era. Except the market right now feels like the dotcom crash, since in the UK at least there is no accompanying market buzz. What will things be like once the correction comes? I am saving every penny I can right now in fear of things getting even worse for a good few years.

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    The way I see it, going from contract to perm is like...

    "Hey, do you want to do this same job for half the money?"

    "Hmm, ehh, let me think about that for a minute..."

    "Oh come on, at least you get job security, you get to stay here forever!"

    "Ahhh, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes!!"

    Leave a comment:


  • GJABS
    replied
    Originally posted by Unix View Post

    I'm not laughing at that, it's that you equate everyone to your own circumstance.
    I've had a thought about what I said. I think I was mistaken, actually. While it is true that there are some contractors who make £400/day, I now accept I was wrong probably, and that there will be some, and possibly many, who make a lot more. More power to their elbow- we need to celebrate and support this.

    Leave a comment:


  • edison
    replied
    Hardly had a sniff of anything worth going for in the last three months but suddenly five roles have appeared this week (contract, perm and FTC) and I've applied for one contract and one perm role.

    Some of the stuff I do is a bit niche, so for me at least, I can see some small green shoots of recovery. But not getting too excited yet.
    Last edited by edison; 23 February 2024, 16:12.

    Leave a comment:


  • SchumiStars
    replied
    March 2024 starts next week. The market is bad. I hate this. Starting to get more than a little anxious now.
    ​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • edison
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    It depends on the clients attitude to the contractor. Away days isn't really control, there is a lot more to it, particularly around the way you work day to day and that's unlikely to change. MoO and RoS need demonstrating to really be a pillar. It's possible a client will keep giving a contractor work created MoO and RoS is generally just a sham anyway.

    So yes.... if there is a seismic shift from one way of working to another then yes outside to perm is safe. But in reality in a vast number of gigs (in the old days) it will be nothing but paperwork and the contractor/now perm just carries on. You'd have a very clear and different way of working, completely different to the perms to then move to perm to be safe. Once you've gone contract to perm the default assumption is they are the same and it's much more difficult to prove than it would if you were in an outside gig and leave. You don't have the focus or both sides of the coin in play if you get me.

    Unless there is a tranferance of liability in your contract but that's a whole different discussion.
    It is possible but not very common and probably less so now than a few years ago. I had an interim role as Head of IT where I had a lot of client restrictions placed on me e.g. not allowed to approve invoices, conduct appraisals or do other typical BAU stuff. We did talk about me taking on the role permanently where all those restrictions would have been removed.

    Leave a comment:


  • oliverson
    replied
    Originally posted by WTFH View Post

    If you've been at a client for more than a couple of years, then the question is: what is the difference between what you deliver and what a permie delivers? (Not talking about what is written in a contract, but what is actually happening)
    If you are just rolled from one project to the next (again, not talking about you asking for a new contract, but what is actually happening on the ground), what's the difference?

    Here's a for example from my world: I would get a contract to implement a particular part of a system. There's only half a dozen of us in Europe who know how to implement that piece properly. My contract is to implement the system and then, once it's working, the business use it and are able to make simple changes to it. It's up to them to get it supported, but the documentation I hand over is enough for someone with a bit of skill to do that. A client may request to keep me on to implement the same thing on a different global site, but my role is still very specific: to implement something that the client doesn't have the in-house skills to do, and once implemented they would have no reason to keep me on, or to employ someone full-time to provide that role.
    I bring a very specific set of skills that are used for a very specific reason, and then I'm gone.
    That's right and that's me. There is nobody at the client who has the skills I have and have been commissioned to complete a specific project. That skills shortage is likely to still be the case when the project is done.

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by simes View Post
    ...Because perhaps the working conditions change; you are demanded to be in the office and to attend Away Days (Control), there is new contract between both parties creating a (MoO), and you can't offer a (RoSubstitution)

    I do not understand why if the above changes from an Outside gig to Perm, we should necessarily get all jumped up about how the Outside gig might be perceived.
    If you've been at a client for more than a couple of years, then the question is: what is the difference between what you deliver and what a permie delivers? (Not talking about what is written in a contract, but what is actually happening)
    If you are just rolled from one project to the next (again, not talking about you asking for a new contract, but what is actually happening on the ground), what's the difference?

    Here's a for example from my world: I would get a contract to implement a particular part of a system. There's only half a dozen of us in Europe who know how to implement that piece properly. My contract is to implement the system and then, once it's working, the business use it and are able to make simple changes to it. It's up to them to get it supported, but the documentation I hand over is enough for someone with a bit of skill to do that. A client may request to keep me on to implement the same thing on a different global site, but my role is still very specific: to implement something that the client doesn't have the in-house skills to do, and once implemented they would have no reason to keep me on, or to employ someone full-time to provide that role.
    I bring a very specific set of skills that are used for a very specific reason, and then I'm gone.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by simes View Post
    ...Because perhaps the working conditions change; you are demanded to be in the office and to attend Away Days (Control), there is new contract between both parties creating a (MoO), and you can't offer a (RoSubstitution)

    I do not understand why if the above changes from an Outside gig to Perm, we should necessarily get all jumped up about how the Outside gig might be perceived.
    It depends on the clients attitude to the contractor. Away days isn't really control, there is a lot more to it, particularly around the way you work day to day and that's unlikely to change. MoO and RoS need demonstrating to really be a pillar. It's possible a client will keep giving a contractor work created MoO and RoS is generally just a sham anyway.

    So yes.... if there is a seismic shift from one way of working to another then yes outside to perm is safe. But in reality in a vast number of gigs (in the old days) it will be nothing but paperwork and the contractor/now perm just carries on. You'd have a very clear and different way of working, completely different to the perms to then move to perm to be safe. Once you've gone contract to perm the default assumption is they are the same and it's much more difficult to prove than it would if you were in an outside gig and leave. You don't have the focus or both sides of the coin in play if you get me.
    And if the onus is on the client to decide In or Outside status, we should be even less jumped up, imho.
    Unless there is a tranferance of liability in your contract but that's a whole different discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • simes
    replied
    Anyway, as to the diametrically opposing experiences of the Market between my sister and I (we are both PMs), while I am dead in the water, my sister finished in Dec, took Jan off entirely and taken calls to finally accept a new gig starting in March.

    Difference in CVs are, she has: Finance, Insurance, Cyber Security, Azure up the wazoo. And I do not, in any way, shape or form. Her's is all the rage currently in terms of requirements.

    Leave a comment:


  • simes
    replied
    ...Because perhaps the working conditions change; you are demanded to be in the office and to attend Away Days (Control), there is new contract between both parties creating a (MoO), and you can't offer a (RoSubstitution)

    I do not understand why if the above changes from an Outside gig to Perm, we should necessarily get all jumped up about how the Outside gig might be perceived.

    And if the onus is on the client to decide In or Outside status, we should be even less jumped up, imho.
    Last edited by simes; 23 February 2024, 12:22.

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by oliverson View Post
    Whilst I could probably go perm at current gig if I wanted ... outside IR35
    These two do not sit well with me. If you could go perm at a client, then what is the difference between you and an employee or inside IR35 contractor?

    Leave a comment:


  • oliverson
    replied
    Originally posted by dx4100 View Post

    I see a lot of myself in what you wrote which probably isn't a surprise.
    Same here. Whilst I could probably go perm at current gig if I wanted and I'm enjoying the work and the people I'm working with, ultra easy, good rate, outside IR35, totally remote, etc., I just couldn't accept that all of a sudden I've gone from being my own boss to having somebody else as my boss. Sure, some will say that the client ultimately calls the shots, and that might be the case at a fundamental level, but not enough for me to give up being a contractor. I haven't been in a perm role for over 20 years now and can't see that changing.

    I think next stop for me is retirement from contracting (not retirement from coding), anytime in the next 2-3 years. I'm increasingly thinking of selling the UK property at the height of the next housing bubble and moving to the Spanish place. There's not much of a mortgage on that now.

    An increasing worry for me is that I'm in my mid-50's and the missus is eleven years older, already retired. Is she supposed to just sit there staring at the back of my head as I write code, working every billable day? It's funny but as a younger man, clearly a toy boy, I was interested in groping my missus 4rse, but looking forward, there's a possibility I might have to start wiping it!
    Last edited by oliverson; 23 February 2024, 10:52.

    Leave a comment:


  • BigDataPro
    replied
    Moved to the next stage of Perm interview in spite of Contracting (20+ years) for the majority of my work life. Looks like next one is a coding interview. Funny thing is that I have also started getting calls for inside roles. £600 inside, 3 days at the client site. Doesn't sit well with me!!!

    Oh by the way, I have started writing articles about data and data engineering on linkedin. Kind of marketing!
    Last edited by BigDataPro; 22 February 2024, 21:32.

    Leave a comment:

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