IR 35 viewpoint (risky business)

[SueEllen]

That's the theory, though I don't think anyone can say with any certainty. Needless to say all of this is great for the contract review lawyers.

A couple of contract reviews a year plus IPSE membership and that's £500 spent with no guarantees that you won't ultimately have to pay all your tax anyway. Perhaps it's better to just get on with life.

If you take care e.g. to stay outside then IPSE (and FSB) will fight your case for you.

It seems from the reports here and contractors I've met HMRC don't like fighting if you can afford legal representation. (That's because they are fighting against people who use to work for them.)

If you can't that's when you have to cough up.

[VectraMan]

Does that mean that if you don't have a contract review then HMRC will view you as making no attempt to determine your status?

That's the theory, though I don't think anyone can say with any certainty. Needless to say all of this is great for the contract review lawyers.

A couple of contract reviews a year plus IPSE membership and that's £500 spent with no guarantees that you won't ultimately have to pay all your tax anyway. Perhaps it's better to just get on with life.

[gables]

That's a very dangerous strategy imho. Burying your head in the sand will worsen the situation if HMRC investigate and find one inside because you've made no attempt to determine your status and acted with impunity. You'll likely get stiffed for massive penalties.

Does that mean that if you don't have a contract review then HMRC will view you as making no attempt to determine your status?

[BolshieBastard]

I always get my contracts reviewed up front, but in this situation, why don't you just assume you're not caught and put the extra away somewhere safe? The odds are very small that you'll be investigated and caught, and you don't even know if you're inside or out.

Do you have D+C, MOO and RoS in your contract? What are your working practices like? Do they match the contract?

I wouldn't definitely ditch a contract just because it's inside IR35.

That's a very dangerous strategy imho. Burying your head in the sand will worsen the situation if HMRC investigate and find one inside because you've made no attempt to determine your status and acted with impunity. You'll likely get stiffed for massive penalties.

[northernladuk]

Whilst I suspect you are right in this instance, not all IR35-caught roles are dodgy or awful.

Anyone who got caught by Danny Alexander's review in the wake of the Ed Lester affair will tell you that

I don't disagree. Dodgy was meant in relation to it being in or outside Ir35.

[TheFaQQer]

I would turn down this gig, why? Because I am pretty confident I can get work in relatively short timescale. That timescale is short enough to make it worth turning the dodgy gig down. I'd ask why the OP is contracting if he's is having to take awful gigs and facing the risk of IR35 or face 6 months on the bench? Something is wrong if he has to either have nothing or a short term gig with permie'esq pay structures. Thats just completely unteneable long term so shouldn't he be looking to get out of contracting?

Whilst I suspect you are right in this instance, not all IR35-caught roles are dodgy or awful.

Anyone who got caught by Danny Alexander's review in the wake of the Ed Lester affair will tell you that

[northernladuk]

Right let's go right back to basics as the advice in this thread completely contradicts the advice on another ongoing thread.

I would turn down this gig, why? Because I am pretty confident I can get work in relatively short timescale. That timescale is short enough to make it worth turning the dodgy gig down. I'd ask why the OP is contracting if he's is having to take awful gigs and facing the risk of IR35 or face 6 months on the bench? Something is wrong if he has to either have nothing or a short term gig with permie'esq pay structures. Thats just completely unteneable long term so shouldn't he be looking to get out of contracting?

Or is the OP just taking the very worst case?

Where is his warcheast in all this? Doesnt exist? I can't see anything in the original post that tells me gonna change in the short term future and will be back here next gig. So why contract?

[damien3]

im inclined to think the best repose is the one infers putting money aside to pay for an obligation that may arise in the future. however that obligation if it does arise is maybe 5/6 years from now. thinking out loud. seems an ok situation but not great because then you just work for a dividend you may or may not collect in 6 years time (depending on the retrospective action HMRC may be able to take )

um the other inference: work as in your caught IR35 but continue to work i'm lead to believe (particularly from this forum) this is crap as the benefits your paying is the same as an employee (time ect) and the receipt is nothing, no recognition no tax break, no worth. I get the argument if you have nothing better keep on doing this but not great for the contracting side. This means the risk is now contracting could be the same and as in employment no better but with all the downsides of not being able to cash out and in no way receiving the recognition. before you all say i'm a great contractor and get recognition all the time you don't, that's the down side of contracting. its always no recognition. you finish your job and well bye bye

btw we're all playing devil's advocate

[TheFaQQer]

I pay my annual salary out of my IR35-caught income, which reduces it somewhat. And then my pension contributions come out of what's left.

I wouldn't necessarily turn down an IR35-caught role, particularly if there is no alternative.

[northernladuk]

Playing devil's advocate, if the odds are very small that you'll be investigated and caught, why have a review at all, put the money aside as you suggest just in case.

Playing devil's advocate. Because people don't keep it to one side get complacent continue with this process as standard until finally get caught with their pants down and lose everything.

[gables]

I always get my contracts reviewed up front, but in this situation, why don't you just assume you're not caught and put the extra away somewhere safe? The odds are very small that you'll be investigated and caught, and you don't even know if you're inside or out.

Do you have D+C, MOO and RoS in your contract? What are your working practices like? Do they match the contract?

I wouldn't definitely ditch a contract just because it's inside IR35.

Playing devil's advocate, if the odds are very small that you'll be investigated and caught, why have a review at all, put the money aside as you suggest just in case.

[VectraMan]

You could always do the contract and pay your tax. Inside IR35 is still a lot better than zero for 6 months.

[b0redom]

I always get my contracts reviewed up front, but in this situation, why don't you just assume you're not caught and put the extra away somewhere safe? The odds are very small that you'll be investigated and caught, and you don't even know if you're inside or out.

Do you have D+C, MOO and RoS in your contract? What are your working practices like? Do they match the contract?

I wouldn't definitely ditch a contract just because it's inside IR35.

[cojak]

Hi guys

just a quick viewpoint from you all

Would anyone be able to take a risk staying in a contract (possibly IR35 caught) as person has not taken out reviews etc) and do this, continue to gamble, and instead not risk 6 months out of work looking for a news contract (very possible)

Imagine if you need food, cash etch so the risk seems attractive?

Otherwise who just leaves, stays on their Tod at home for 6 months and then does the contract properly next time round.

lets assume the review is pointless as if IR35 caught re-negotiating with the agency/ client is pointless and work has commenced.

Get the contract reviewed and find out one way or the other.

If the contract is caught, why not accept the decision and pay the extra tax and NI?

[damien3]

Hi guys

just a quick viewpoint from you all

Would anyone be able to take a risk staying in a contract (possibly IR35 caught) as person has not taken out reviews etc) and do this, continue to gamble, and instead not risk 6 months out of work looking for a news contract (very possible)

Imagine if you need food, cash etch so the risk seems attractive?

Otherwise who just leaves, stays on their Tod at home for 6 months and then does the contract properly next time round.

lets assume the review is pointless as if IR35 caught re-negotiating with the agency/ client is pointless and work has commenced.