Negotiating Contract Wording - Next Day Start

[tractor]

...

I would not worry too much. I am a student solictor (LLM LPC) as well as a contractor and have spent considerable time investigating IR35.

IR35 is intended to capture disguised employment - people who leave one job on a Friday and return on a Monday as a 'contractor'. It has a number of indicators but none of these is a 'magic bullet'. The fact that you are contracted for a very short period (for example) and have no security is an indicator that you are not employed. See - MBF Design Services Ltd v Revenue & Customs [2011] UKFTT 35 (TC) (05 January 2011)

In that case the contractor ticked many 'employed' boxes and still was found OUTSIDE IR35. QDOS are rightly thorough but it is not the end of the world if a couple of points are missed.

These comments are given expressly without acceptance of liability and do not constitute any acceptance of a duty of care or professional obligation.

With respect though, that is why your advice is worth exactly what we paid for it.

I would have accepted 'subject to contract review' Agent would then have had to take you seriously when it came to amendments. And if they did not, OP would be entitled to reject. Remember also that you only have to fulfil one of the 3 pillars to be clear of IR35 and as others have said why bend over at the thought of it?

[Vordrak]

Not to Worry

I would not worry too much. I am a student solictor (LLM LPC) as well as a contractor and have spent considerable time investigating IR35.

IR35 is intended to capture disguised employment - people who leave one job on a Friday and return on a Monday as a 'contractor'. It has a number of indicators but none of these is a 'magic bullet'. The fact that you are contracted for a very short period (for example) and have no security is an indicator that you are not employed. See - MBF Design Services Ltd v Revenue & Customs [2011] UKFTT 35 (TC) (05 January 2011)

In that case the contractor ticked many 'employed' boxes and still was found OUTSIDE IR35. QDOS are rightly thorough but it is not the end of the world if a couple of points are missed.

These comments are given expressly without acceptance of liability and do not constitute any acceptance of a duty of care or professional obligation.

[Freaki Li Cuatre]

Did you read the contract first and a least make an effort to understand its IR35 implications? If so you might have had a chance to delay the gig by few days to get the changes made.

No - like I said in my OP there was no scope for delaying the start of the gig.

They offered me the gig in the interview and asked if I'd be prepared to start the next day.

If I'd have ummed and ahhed I'm sure they'd have offered it to one of the other 4 candidates they interviewed that day.

[jmo21]

^ This
But not this V


Why would you want to do that? If you want to jump the gun you can just declare the contract as being inside IR35. Even if the contract wording is not entirely IR35 friendly doesn't mean you will be investigated, yet alone deemed inside IR35 given the current track record of IR35 investigations.

Fair enough, was just giving another option. I agree with the "don't tulip your pants bit too.

[sal]

Everyone frets about tax. That's not why you go to work. If taking a short IR35-caught gig gives you a new set of skills to bring in future work, look on it as an investment. Never let the tax tail wag the business dog.

^ This
But not this V

......If you are *still* worried, go brolly for this contract only.

Why would you want to do that? If you want to jump the gun you can just declare the contract as being inside IR35. Even if the contract wording is not entirely IR35 friendly doesn't mean you will be investigated, yet alone deemed inside IR35 given the current track record of IR35 investigations.

Or better yet - not soil your pants every time IR35 is mentioned and be prepared to take the small hit on take home pay without jeopardizing the contract, by fussing about such details for a 2 month contract.

[TheFaQQer]

Don't do that as it would be a single contract permanent employment with only 1 place of work so no travel and subsistence expenses would be claimable.

FTFY - other expenses would be claimable

[TheFaQQer]

I'm assuming that by turning up on site I have accepted the terms of the contract and that a notice period will apply (though, in reality, they'd probably ask me to leave there and then on the spot)?

Yes - you accepted the contract terms by conduct, so you either give notice or stay.

As an aside, the contract is only for 2 months & it's exposing me to some interesting technology, GIS & Azure to name a couple, so there's a part of me that's saying just stick with it IR35 or not.

Presumably, you would have taken the gig if it was IR35, so you now need to consider whether you can work around IR35 or leave.

Options...

1 - Treat it as IR35 caught and pay tax
2 - Treat it as IR35 caught and stick the cash into a pension
3 - Treat it as outside IR35 and put the money to one side hoping not to be investigated and you "get away" with it
4 - Treat it as outside IR35 and ignore the issue
5 - Leave

Those spring to mind, I'm sure there are other things you could do, though.

[d000hg]

You could try and wangle the rate slightly, or you could push hard to get the contract amended. Especially if you can just send it back with some clauses struck out.

[eek]

I agree with this.

A 2 month contract is a pretty small target for HMRC to go after.

Even finding you "guilty" with that contract, the monetary hit wouldn't be that great. And even though that may trigger an investigation of your other contracts, if they are outside you have nothing to worry about.

If you are *still* worried, go brolly for this contract only.

Don't do that as it would be a single contract permanent employment with only 1 place of work so no expenses would be claimable.

As I've stated above if you have a pension ensure the amount you pay this year is greater than the contract value after other expenses. Then IR35 is a pointless question (yes it was under IR35 but everything went to expenses (including pension))..

[jmo21]

Everyone frets about tax. That's not why you go to work. If taking a short IR35-caught gig gives you a new set of skills to bring in future work, look on it as an investment. Never let the tax tail wag the business dog.

I agree with this.

A 2 month contract is a pretty small target for HMRC to go after.

Even finding you "guilty" with that contract, the monetary hit wouldn't be that great. And even though that may trigger an investigation of your other contracts, if they are outside you have nothing to worry about.

If you are *still* worried, go brolly for this contract only.

[psychocandy]

So whats the point paying for a contact review if you've started anyway? As you said, they aint gonna change it now.

Might as well have just sucked it up and started regardless if that was the plan. Or alternatively tell them tough got to get a review first - wait another day.

But for 2 months hey ho.

Only issue is what if it extends and becomes longer?

[northernladuk]

Did you read the contract first and a least make an effort to understand its IR35 implications? If so you might have had a chance to delay the gig by few days to get the changes made.

[eek]

Everyone frets about tax. That's not why you go to work. If taking a short IR35-caught gig gives you a new set of skills to bring in future work, look on it as an investment. Never let the tax tail wag the business dog.

And don't forget pension contributions are a valid expense even under IR35...

[malvolio]

Everyone frets about tax. That's not why you go to work. If taking a short IR35-caught gig gives you a new set of skills to bring in future work, look on it as an investment. Never let the tax tail wag the business dog.

[Freaki Li Cuatre]

Normally I have a bit of time to get my contracts reviewed before I get to go on site.

Landed a gig yesterday late pm & was asked if I could start today & I said yes.

Got the contract reviewed by QDOS on a 24 hour turnaround & it has failed on a number of points. I fancy that I'm going to struggle to get the required changes.

What's the situation if I decide to bail now? I'm assuming that by turning up on site I have accepted the terms of the contract and that a notice period will apply (though, in reality, they'd probably ask me to leave there and then on the spot)?

As an aside, the contract is only for 2 months & it's exposing me to some interesting technology, GIS & Azure to name a couple, so there's a part of me that's saying just stick with it IR35 or not.

Decisions, decisions eh?