Reply to: I hope this guy is wrong about our future

[JohntheBike]

Don't confuse builders and associated trades with essentially unskilled manual labor. Builders, plumbers, electricians, plasterers are all skilled trades that take time to learn and in some cases become formally certified for.

Times can change, yes, but your example stretches over three generations. The problem is with us here and now.

Even if farmers put up wages to attract UK national to do the jobs, the chances are they will end up losing money as supermarkets won't want to absorb all the costs and we will all end up paying more at the checkouts.

Add to that the fact that un-employment is already at it's lowest since 1975 and the chances are you won't get anyone to do the job anyway.

you could be right. Only time will tell.

[DaveB]

yes, accepted, but if those manual jobs paid better, then things might change. Our society works on supply and demand.

My grandfather was a miner who spent most of his working life cutting coal in 18 inch seams 1000 ft below the surface, with no pension, sick pay nor paid holidays. He was determined that my father would have a better job. My father became a bricklayer and had to work outside in all weathers, with no pension, sick pay nor paid holidays. My father was determined that I would have a better job. In his way, he gave me a better education than he had and I had a better job, with a pension, sick pay and paid holidays. Tables have turned now. Anyone with building trade experience can improve their situation, especially if they can build or renovate houses. Many can make much more money than I can as a contractor and now that I have no pension, sick pay nor paid holidays, ironically, I seem to be much better off than I was when I enjoyed those benefits.

Times can change.

Don't confuse builders and associated trades with essentially unskilled manual labor. Builders, plumbers, electricians, plasterers are all skilled trades that take time to learn and in some cases become formally certified for.

Times can change, yes, but your example stretches over three generations. The problem is with us here and now.

Even if farmers put up wages to attract UK national to do the jobs, the chances are they will end up losing money as supermarkets won't want to absorb all the costs and we will all end up paying more at the checkouts.

Add to that the fact that un-employment is already at it's lowest since 1975 and the chances are you won't get anyone to do the job anyway.

[JohntheBike]

What was the rate of pay for those jobs, compared to the national average wage at the time? What was the rate of pay compared to (eg) university fees? What were the expectations from the farmers for regular labour and not the odd week or weekend here and there? What was the quality of produce like? What were the expectations from purchasers on undamaged fruit/veg (ie requiring care from experienced pickers and not just students there for the weekend that couldn’t give a toss)? What were the volumes of fruit/veg requiring pickers?

Whatever year you’re seeking to compare to, remember that there were very different economic factors at play at that time.

yes, agreed

[JohntheBike]

The ones that are now working in call centres and service industry jobs. Our economy has moved on in the half century. Manual labour is no longer a mainstay for local employment. Better education and the rise of the service sector has moved people away from labour intensive jobs. Why slog your guts out for minimum wage in a muddy field or sweltering heat when you could be answering phones in a comfortable air-conditioned office. The reason we have oversees workers doing the jobs is that UK nationals don't want to and don't need to.

yes, accepted, but if those manual jobs paid better, then things might change. Our society works on supply and demand.

My grandfather was a miner who spent most of his working life cutting coal in 18 inch seams 1000 ft below the surface, with no pension, sick pay nor paid holidays. He was determined that my father would have a better job. My father became a bricklayer and had to work outside in all weathers, with no pension, sick pay nor paid holidays. My father was determined that I would have a better job. In his way, he gave me a better education than he had and I had a better job, with a pension, sick pay and paid holidays. Tables have turned now. Anyone with building trade experience can improve their situation, especially if they can build or renovate houses. Many can make much more money than I can as a contractor and now that I have no pension, sick pay nor paid holidays, ironically, I seem to be much better off than I was when I enjoyed those benefits.

Times can change.

[DaveB]

I'll ask again, who was picking the fruit before the UK joined the EU and for that matter, any of the other jobs that non UK nationals are doing?

The ones that are now working in call centres and service industry jobs. Our economy has moved on in the last half century. Manual labour is no longer a mainstay for local employment. Better education and the rise of the service sector has moved people away from labour intensive jobs. Why slog your guts out for minimum wage in a muddy field or sweltering heat when you could be answering phones in a comfortable air-conditioned office. The reason we have oversees workers doing the jobs is that UK nationals don't want to and don't need to.

[meridian]

I hope this guy is wrong about our future

I'll ask again, who was picking the fruit before the UK joined the EU and for that matter, any of the other jobs that non UK nationals are doing?

What was the rate of pay for those jobs, compared to the national average wage at the time? What was the rate of pay compared to (eg) university fees? What were the expectations from the farmers for regular labour and not the odd week or weekend here and there? What was the quality of produce like? What were the expectations from purchasers on undamaged fruit/veg (ie requiring care from experienced pickers and not just students there for the weekend that couldn’t give a toss)? What were the volumes of fruit/veg requiring pickers?

Whatever year you’re seeking to compare to, remember that there were very different economic factors at play at that time.

[JohntheBike]

Some farm work can be automated, but the tech to take on the unpredictable manual jobs like picking fruit and salad crops etc. isn't here yet and isn't going to be for years. These guys have spent 6 years and $10m on a machine to pick strawberries and still don't have an Alpha product yet, and that won't work on other crops because the physical requirements are all different..

It will come, but not in time to mitigate the impact on agricultural labour we are experiencing now, and which is only going to get worse.

The Age of Robot Farmers | The New Yorker

I'll ask again, who was picking the fruit before the UK joined the EU and for that matter, any of the other jobs that non UK nationals are doing?

[jamesbrown]

FTFY.

You gravely underestimate prawnie. He's on £1.20/hr.

[DaveB]

Most farm work can be done by sophisticated and advanced machines, but farmers are used to paying some person £1/hr instead of investing in the automation required.

Some farm work can be automated, but the tech to take on the unpredictable manual jobs like picking fruit and salad crops etc. isn't here yet and isn't going to be for years. These guys have spent 6 years and $10m on a machine to pick strawberries and still don't have an Alpha product yet, and that won't work on other crops because the physical requirements are all different..

It will come, but not in time to mitigate the impact on agricultural labour we are experiencing now, and which is only going to get worse.

The Age of Robot Farmers | The New Yorker

[BlasterBates]

Most farm work can be done by sophisticated and advanced machines, but farmers are used to paying some person £1/hr instead of investing in the automation required.

...drive the buses, man the machine on the production line, sweep the roads, work in the nursing home, work in the shop, build houses...etc etc etc

[meridian]

Most VB6 work can be done by sophisticated and advanced machines, but Swindon is used to paying some person £1/hr instead of investing in the automation required.

FTFY.

[DimPrawn]

Try recruiting a Brit to get up at 6:00 AM to work on a fruit farm, and when you've tried it you'll know where the people will be taking the UK.

Most farm work can be done by sophisticated and advanced machines, but farmers are used to paying some person £1/hr instead of investing in the automation required.

[tazdevil]

Try recruiting a Brit to get up at 6:00 AM to work on a fruit farm, and when you've tried it you'll know where the people will be taking the UK.

Better learn to roll up our sleeves then and get on with things Perhaps a new national service scheme with people working on farms and in care homes rather than the military will instil a work ethic Reduced to nothing student loan debts as a reward

[BlasterBates]

Boris and the conservatives are more likely to make the UK a success but in reality it us the people that'll make or break the UK. I for one am optimistic for the future and will support rather than denigrate our great nation.

Try recruiting a Brit to get up at 6:00 AM to work on a fruit farm, and when you've tried it you'll know where the people will be taking the UK.

[tazdevil]

The fact that Corbyn would have driven the economy down the plug hole faster doesn't mean that the Tories aren't driving the economy down the plug hole.

Boris and the conservatives are more likely to make the UK a success but in reality it us the people that'll make or break the UK. I for one am optimistic for the future and will support rather than denigrate our great nation.